You write: "It's all in the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita, but it becomes overwhelmingly meaningful only because to us it is the most absolute reality of all realities, and not the semi-hallucinatory state that many more down-to-earth Buddhist thinkers see in Yoga." I agree. I have seen "down-to-earth" Buddhists shout out the criticism you mention. (When I have spoken of such realities, I have frequently experienced the response, "That's Hinduism not Buddhism.")

The Buddha did not disrespect or deny the realities of which you speak. He simply added one more level of discernment in saying that even then we were dealing with fabrication and there is one more step of getting behind fabrication. Not from a theoretical viewpoint but from the viewpoint of practice and "reality."

You write: "We devotees of "Radical Traditional Yoga" have another whole approach to the conundrum of "what are we exactly?" that you so precisely analyse above. Instead of trying to figure it out, we just surrender to the awesome, unfathomable, unknowable, infinite wonder of it all." This is such a rich statement.

It is so true that one cannot force enlightenment and one must "surrender" even though, paradoxically, it is an active surrender, an intentional surrender. And yet, i believe that in that surrender one does not abandon one's discernment and ability to observe/know. Thus, i might quibble in a minor way with the words "unfathomable and unknowable."

I believe this is where the Buddha departed, ever so subtly, from that which preceded his effort. He was fully aware of the experience, the reality of the full yogic experience, but with a "surrendered" mindfulness he noticed something "out of the corner of his eye" and that was the fabricated nature of that state. He carefully, slowly, and gently stepped back and viewed the "origin" of the fabrication — and thus was able to fathom and to know its source.

This is not something I offer from a text or theoretical speculation viewpoint but rather from the practice. I can explain it in more detail if warranted but perhaps that is all that is needed to say that I agree with you that there is a subtle difference but a difference we most likely could both embrace within a common frame.

More later. Thanks for your well-considered reply. A pleasure to find someone who brings such clarity and wisdom to this topic.

After all these excellent discussions, I still fee this is a major difference between core Yoga and core Buddhism. It's the difference between the Upanishads and the Dhammapada. And it's not right or wrong, good or bad. It is, like I wrote earlier, and you wrote in your comment, just two sides of the same coin.

Bob Weisenberg
http://YogaDemystified.com