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	<title>Comments on: How old is Yoga? Reply to Waylon Lewis.</title>
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	<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/</link>
	<description>daily blog, videos, e-newsletter &#38; magazine on yoga + organics + green living + non-new agey spirituality + ecofashion + conscious consumerism=it&#039;s about the mindful life.</description>
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		<title>By: How Old is Yoga - guest post by Ramesh Bjonnes &#124; Subtle Yoga</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-2730899</link>
		<dc:creator>How Old is Yoga - guest post by Ramesh Bjonnes &#124; Subtle Yoga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] How old is Yoga? Reply to Waylon Lewis.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] How old is Yoga? Reply to Waylon Lewis.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yoga: It's not Hindu—not even Vedic. &#124; elephant journal</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-171015</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoga: It's not Hindu—not even Vedic. &#124; elephant journal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] &gt; How old is yoga: a reply to Waylon Lewis [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &gt; How old is yoga: a reply to Waylon Lewis [...]</p>
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		<title>By: curious</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-83962</link>
		<dc:creator>curious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-83962</guid>
		<description>I will take them all- a historical person, cosmic consciousness, a combination of aryan Rudra and the pre-aryan Pasupathinatha. And I will add that he is a Hindu god (even though Ramesh objects to it). Shiva is my Eswara.Om Namah shivaya </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will take them all- a historical person, cosmic consciousness, a combination of aryan Rudra and the pre-aryan Pasupathinatha. And I will add that he is a Hindu god (even though Ramesh objects to it). Shiva is my Eswara.Om Namah shivaya</p>
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		<title>By: Ramesh</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-78014</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jun 2010 02:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-78014</guid>
		<description>Vakibs, as you know, I disagree with some of your assertions about Shiva and Samkhya. Shiva in Tantra is both a philosophical term (Cosmic Consciousness) and a historical person. As an initiate into the secret Tantric tradition, and in according to our oral history, Shiva was, like Buddha and Krishna, a historical person, the King of Yoga, the first to systematize yoga and tantra practice. Samkhya was the world&#039;s first philosophy and is based on Tantra but appeared several thousand years after Shiva. So Tantra or Shivaism had existed for several thousand years before Kapila developed Smakhya (1500 BCE) Samkhya is also often referred to as Kapilasia Tantra, the Tantra of Kapila.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vakibs, as you know, I disagree with some of your assertions about Shiva and Samkhya. Shiva in Tantra is both a philosophical term (Cosmic Consciousness) and a historical person. As an initiate into the secret Tantric tradition, and in according to our oral history, Shiva was, like Buddha and Krishna, a historical person, the King of Yoga, the first to systematize yoga and tantra practice. Samkhya was the world&#039;s first philosophy and is based on Tantra but appeared several thousand years after Shiva. So Tantra or Shivaism had existed for several thousand years before Kapila developed Smakhya (1500 BCE) Samkhya is also often referred to as Kapilasia Tantra, the Tantra of Kapila.</p>
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		<title>By: svan</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-65801</link>
		<dc:creator>svan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 16:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-65801</guid>
		<description>late arriving, but thank you all for this terrific article and discussion!  
vakibs, I found your comments here and on your Samkhya link very illuminating - wish you could hear the pennies dropping... thank you for this </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>late arriving, but thank you all for this terrific article and discussion!<br />
vakibs, I found your comments here and on your Samkhya link very illuminating &#8211; wish you could hear the pennies dropping&#8230; thank you for this</p>
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		<title>By: vakibs</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-52471</link>
		<dc:creator>vakibs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-52471</guid>
		<description>It is wrong to say that Yoga comes out of Vedanta. That&#039;d be very ridiculous indeed. In fact, the 6 classical traditions of Indian philosophy are Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaiseshika, Mimamsa and Vedanta. As you see, Vedanta is very different from Yoga. Both of their paths have overlapped for a while, especially within the Bhagavata religion (which produced the &lt;i&gt;Bhagavad Gita&lt;/i&gt;) but they were quite distinct religions for most of the time.  
 
In fact, there exists a pairing of philosophies. And it is like this : Yoga with Sāmkhya, Vaiseshika with Nyaya, and Vedanta with Mimamsa.  
 
Of all these philosophical systems, Sāmkhya is considered the oldest. And its influence can be felt in every other system. Its founder &lt;i&gt;Kapila&lt;/i&gt; is admired and respected by one and all. Most importantly, what he said is atheistic !! Yoga (which can be easily interchanged with the word &lt;i&gt;Tantra&lt;/i&gt;) has just taken the philosophy of Sāmkhya and translated it into a theistic viewpoint, and made it into a practical system of life for everyone.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is wrong to say that Yoga comes out of Vedanta. That&#039;d be very ridiculous indeed. In fact, the 6 classical traditions of Indian philosophy are Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaiseshika, Mimamsa and Vedanta. As you see, Vedanta is very different from Yoga. Both of their paths have overlapped for a while, especially within the Bhagavata religion (which produced the <i>Bhagavad Gita</i>) but they were quite distinct religions for most of the time.  </p>
<p>In fact, there exists a pairing of philosophies. And it is like this : Yoga with Sāmkhya, Vaiseshika with Nyaya, and Vedanta with Mimamsa.  </p>
<p>Of all these philosophical systems, Sāmkhya is considered the oldest. And its influence can be felt in every other system. Its founder <i>Kapila</i> is admired and respected by one and all. Most importantly, what he said is atheistic !! Yoga (which can be easily interchanged with the word <i>Tantra</i>) has just taken the philosophy of Sāmkhya and translated it into a theistic viewpoint, and made it into a practical system of life for everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: vakibs</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-52468</link>
		<dc:creator>vakibs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-52468</guid>
		<description>If you want to see how closely Tantra influenced the Vedic tradition, look no beyond than Kashmiri Shaivism. 
 
Vedic or Brahmanic tradition is not against women or the lower castes. In fact, if you look at the number of women who are  found debating in the Upanishads, it is very high ! Probably, the most important of the Upanishads - &lt;i&gt;Brihadaranyaka&lt;/i&gt; is a series of conversations between Yajnavalkya and his wife Maitreyi.  Then we have sages who were born into familes of very lowly occupations :  both &lt;i&gt;Valmiki&lt;/i&gt; who composed Ramayana and &lt;i&gt;Vyasa&lt;/i&gt; who composed Mahabharata and who compiled the Vedas were born into very low castes, and even mentioned to be of dark skin colour !  
 
If at all an Aryan invasion has happened in India, it was more a series of immigrants coming down to settle down in a culturally and technologically superior land. Not much unlike how Indians and Chinese students flock to the US universities today.  
 
The Vedas and Tantra come from the same single root, and that root has its origin in the Indus valley civilization. And it is from that root that Indian mathematics and science germinated.  
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to see how closely Tantra influenced the Vedic tradition, look no beyond than Kashmiri Shaivism. </p>
<p>Vedic or Brahmanic tradition is not against women or the lower castes. In fact, if you look at the number of women who are  found debating in the Upanishads, it is very high ! Probably, the most important of the Upanishads &#8211; <i>Brihadaranyaka</i> is a series of conversations between Yajnavalkya and his wife Maitreyi.  Then we have sages who were born into familes of very lowly occupations :  both <i>Valmiki</i> who composed Ramayana and <i>Vyasa</i> who composed Mahabharata and who compiled the Vedas were born into very low castes, and even mentioned to be of dark skin colour !  </p>
<p>If at all an Aryan invasion has happened in India, it was more a series of immigrants coming down to settle down in a culturally and technologically superior land. Not much unlike how Indians and Chinese students flock to the US universities today.  </p>
<p>The Vedas and Tantra come from the same single root, and that root has its origin in the Indus valley civilization. And it is from that root that Indian mathematics and science germinated.</p>
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		<title>By: vakibs</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-52467</link>
		<dc:creator>vakibs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-52467</guid>
		<description>You are correct in pointing out that Yoga is related directly to Tantra and Sāmkhya. In the Indian tradition, Sāmkhya represents one of the 6 classical philosophical views (darshanas). In fact, it is considered to be the oldest, and its influence can be felt in every other philosophical treatise, including the Upanishads. Even epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata mention Sāmkhya liberally. If there is a single root from which the various million philosophical ideas and religions of India germinate, that would be Sāmkhya.  
 
Now, Sāmkhya literally means &quot;enumeration&quot; in Sanskrit, and its philosophy is tied to enumerating every object in nature with respect to causal relationships. To understand it properly, one have to use the completely &lt;a href=&quot;http:\/\/the-redpill.blogspot.com\/2010\/04\/samkhya-arithmetic-of-natures-evolution.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;non-intuitive system of enumeration that was developed in India&lt;/a&gt; - through the use of zeroes.  
 
The 3 gunas of Sāmkhya stand for 3 choices that a finite number has on the axis of integers : to increase (rajas), to reduce to a zero (sattwa) and to stay the same (tamas). These 3 choices are very non-intuitive, especially that of sattwa (becoming zero) which paradoxically is the best bet towards reaching to infinity. The trimurti (literally, 3 forms) pantheon of Hindu gods are just a representation of infinity with respect to the 3 qualities : Brahma (sattwa), Vishnu (rajas) and Shiva (tamas).  
 
So, Shiva is not a human being, but a representation of the cosmos ! He is indeed a historical personality, but only with respect to cosmic history (or the history of the very universe). This is because Indian tradition says that in the beginning, there was neither being nor non-being. And the very first being to have arose from this state of utter neutrality is Shiva. This is what makes him the very first Yogi.  
 
About the human tradition of the Yogic system and its origins, we have to look for Sāmkhya. The meditation seal of Mohenzo Daro gives one possible upper limit to the date of origin. It is from Sāmkhya that both the Vedic and Tantric traditions have arose. From the same source, they diverged into two rivers, which again split into a million more. This is how things work in India : from one, many.. unlike in the USA where it is from many, one. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are correct in pointing out that Yoga is related directly to Tantra and Sāmkhya. In the Indian tradition, Sāmkhya represents one of the 6 classical philosophical views (darshanas). In fact, it is considered to be the oldest, and its influence can be felt in every other philosophical treatise, including the Upanishads. Even epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata mention Sāmkhya liberally. If there is a single root from which the various million philosophical ideas and religions of India germinate, that would be Sāmkhya.  </p>
<p>Now, Sāmkhya literally means &quot;enumeration&quot; in Sanskrit, and its philosophy is tied to enumerating every object in nature with respect to causal relationships. To understand it properly, one have to use the completely <a href="http:\/\/the-redpill.blogspot.com\/2010\/04\/samkhya-arithmetic-of-natures-evolution.html" target="_blank">non-intuitive system of enumeration that was developed in India</a> &#8211; through the use of zeroes.  </p>
<p>The 3 gunas of Sāmkhya stand for 3 choices that a finite number has on the axis of integers : to increase (rajas), to reduce to a zero (sattwa) and to stay the same (tamas). These 3 choices are very non-intuitive, especially that of sattwa (becoming zero) which paradoxically is the best bet towards reaching to infinity. The trimurti (literally, 3 forms) pantheon of Hindu gods are just a representation of infinity with respect to the 3 qualities : Brahma (sattwa), Vishnu (rajas) and Shiva (tamas).  </p>
<p>So, Shiva is not a human being, but a representation of the cosmos ! He is indeed a historical personality, but only with respect to cosmic history (or the history of the very universe). This is because Indian tradition says that in the beginning, there was neither being nor non-being. And the very first being to have arose from this state of utter neutrality is Shiva. This is what makes him the very first Yogi.  </p>
<p>About the human tradition of the Yogic system and its origins, we have to look for Sāmkhya. The meditation seal of Mohenzo Daro gives one possible upper limit to the date of origin. It is from Sāmkhya that both the Vedic and Tantric traditions have arose. From the same source, they diverged into two rivers, which again split into a million more. This is how things work in India : from one, many.. unlike in the USA where it is from many, one.</p>
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		<title>By: Ramesh</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-50282</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-50282</guid>
		<description>Kaoverii, I agree with you, Feuerstein and Frawley have done a fantastic job at translating tantric and ayurvedic philosophy and practice for a Western audience. However, they have downplayed and sometimes distorted the importance of tantra by wrongly claiming that yoga hails from the Vedic lineage. As you indicate, it is time we present the history of yoga from the other side, the tantric. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaoverii, I agree with you, Feuerstein and Frawley have done a fantastic job at translating tantric and ayurvedic philosophy and practice for a Western audience. However, they have downplayed and sometimes distorted the importance of tantra by wrongly claiming that yoga hails from the Vedic lineage. As you indicate, it is time we present the history of yoga from the other side, the tantric.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaoverii</title>
		<link>http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/04/how-old-is-yoga-reply-to-waylon-lewis/comment-page-1/#comment-50213</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaoverii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=47457#comment-50213</guid>
		<description>Yay Ramesh! So happy to see you writing here. This is an awesome article and I&#039;m tweeting it immediately to my list and emailing it to my students - Feuerstein and Frawley are great no doubt, but it&#039;s time for the West to have access to yoga history from the perspective of the Tantrics.  
 
History is typically written by people in power - that fact gets glossed over by Western scholars, as does the Brahmanical dogma that has oppressed women and lower castes and disenfranchised them from spiritual practices.  
 
Women who practice yoga should take note - if you buy into the ultra conservative Hindu Nationalist idea that yoga comes out of Vedanta, you are colluding with a legacy of oppression. Men too! We all want freedom, that&#039;s the point of yoga. And yoga history needs to be freed too. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yay Ramesh! So happy to see you writing here. This is an awesome article and I&#039;m tweeting it immediately to my list and emailing it to my students &#8211; Feuerstein and Frawley are great no doubt, but it&#039;s time for the West to have access to yoga history from the perspective of the Tantrics.  </p>
<p>History is typically written by people in power &#8211; that fact gets glossed over by Western scholars, as does the Brahmanical dogma that has oppressed women and lower castes and disenfranchised them from spiritual practices.  </p>
<p>Women who practice yoga should take note &#8211; if you buy into the ultra conservative Hindu Nationalist idea that yoga comes out of Vedanta, you are colluding with a legacy of oppression. Men too! We all want freedom, that&#039;s the point of yoga. And yoga history needs to be freed too.</p>
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