Gurus Give Me the Willies. ~ Naomi Gottlieb-Miller

Via elephant journal
on Mar 8, 2012
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Photo: Sarah R.

As someone who grew up in Washington, D.C. and her suburbs, I have a reasonable respect for the law. I also grew up wearing combat boots, drove a car held together with duct tape and listened to hardcore feminist rock bands.

So it’s safe to say that I also have a strong disregard for the “establishment” and am suspicious of charismatic authority figures.

I’ve been in healthy relationships, as well as ones that were fairly toxic. This Anusara scandal is not my first rodeo.

The assertion that ignorance of basic yoga history is generating distress and upheaval among many within the yoga world is mildly offensive. The notion that we ignore the hidden “Tantric agenda” and therefore are open to “libidinal surprise” is a gross misrepresentation of the many people who chose to teach, practice and study yoga because of the immense benefits that have nothing to do with how awesome my ass will look in yoga pants or how my husband won’t ever need Viagra.

I don’t practice yoga in the hopes that it will make me better in the sack. I practice yoga because it makes me feel good about myself. God forbid, we women should feel good about ourselves, ever.

Yoga has taught me to trust my body in utterly transformational ways. My practice of yoga has taught me discipline, self-respect, compassion and an appreciation for creating boundaries.

Yoga has undeniably opened my hips, but more importantly the practice of yoga offered to me with enormous integrity by my own teachers, has taught me how to stand up for myself and to be a leader. If the “consequence” of this is that yoga also makes my physical relationship with my husband more electric, neither one of us is complaining.

The yoga I endeavor to teach contains the tools for my students to stand up for what they believe in, to make choices with dignity, to create healthy boundaries of their own and to love themselves without hesitation.

Photo: Naomi Gottlieb-Miller

If my students feel better after class than when they walked in, I believe I’ve done my job. If this encourages them to enjoy a more active and exciting sex life, I couldn’t be happier for the fireworks that yoga brings into their bedrooms or kitchens or the backseats of their cars, for that matter.

My real interest is to witness how this practice that encourages transformation and awakening consciousness, can also increase our integrity and accountability.

Basically, if we can learn to make confident, conscious choices on our yoga mats, can those choices also translate to similar decisions in life off the mat?

The truth is that John Friend’s indiscretions have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated claim that yoga began as a sex cult.

Nor do they have anything to do with the suggestion that he was worshiped as a yoga rock star guru by his students. His indiscretions, as well as those of the many other power abusers in history, have everything to do with his poor choices today.

When we continue to view yoga from the vantage of its origin and don’t offer the opportunity for evolution, we remain steadfastly in the futility of the past and we continue to hold the future hostage.

Just because the source of something might be a little smudged doesn’t mean that it’s current incarnation is poisonous. Or that all those people who choose to teach, practice or study yoga are snakes.

I don’t believe in Guru’s. I never have.

Maybe it’s a D.C. thing. Maybe I just recognize that we are all human and that it’s that humanity which is more appealing to me than a person’s contention that they possess a more direct line to God than I do.

Gurus give me the willies. Especially when they’re put into the context that so many people, including the current crop of yoga critics, have lately: a charismatic spiritual leader who dispenses feel-good aphorisms and is pedestal-ized by his many followers who blindly sell their lives away for a moment in his sunshine.

This does not describe my yoga experience. I personally believe that anyone can wear the mantle of Guru, but I tend to listen more closely to those who don’t.

I don’t believe in Gurus, but I do believe in wise women and men as leaders, sages, heroes, free thinkers, torchbearers, paradigm shifters, trail blazers and truth seekers. Some of these people are my friends; some are my teachers; two are my parents. Some of these folks I agree with and others I don’t. But I steadfastly believe that the key to radically affirming your life and living your truth has to do with how well we listen to one another and how skillful we become at disseminating that knowledge on our own.

The idolatry model of the guru is entirely unappealing to me. It’s not in our best interest as teachers or as students to perpetuate this unhealthy paradigm because it doesn’t seek to enlighten or uplift, but instead to keep “disciples” in their places, forever beholden to the guru myth.

This isn’t yoga, in my humble opinion.

The word, “guru,” has many definitions in Sanskrit, but one of the most common is, “brings one from darkness into light.”

Anything, anyone can illuminate you. Retain your right to drag yourself out of the darkness sometimes. Make the light we each possess a shared quantity within our communities rather than used as spiritual ransom.

Can we instead learn the art of listening, collaborating and empowering one another instead of just empowering the “one?”

If yoga is going to survive, the only answer is, yes.




Editor: Brianna Bemel


Naomi Gottlieb-Miller is a Washington, D.C. based yoga teacher known for her ability to creatively weave everything from pop culture references to comic book superheroes to Tantric philosophy into her yoga classes. She is inspired by the notion that yoga exists everywhere including the kitchen, in traffic, in the grocery store, at a rock concert and deep in the woods—you simply have to uncover it and bring it into the light. When she’s not in a handstand, Naomi is likely in the extolling the virtues of avocados, chocolate and kale to anyone who will listen, including her dog, who incidentally doesn’t seem to care.

To learn more about Naomi’s teaching check out her website:



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25 Responses to “Gurus Give Me the Willies. ~ Naomi Gottlieb-Miller”

  1. Harleigh Quinn says:

    Though I agree with you, it's not that the origins are smudged, it's that the people it now currently attracts, essentially narcissists of the highest order, have also tainted it from it's possible benefits to the benefits of the one, just as you stated.

  2. Harleigh Quinn says:

    Example, my estranged wife, whom feel even deeper into narcissism AFTER getting her yoga teacher certification, I remember saying "I'm so TONED now! Look at how toned I am!!" While also saying that yoga was helping her spiritually.

    She calls herself Mukti now and has dove deep into the DC Rave scene.

    In my recent experiences with yoga nuts lately, both here in DC, around the world, California, and even the BM culture, I have seen so many body conscious narcissists I feel it's 80s aerobics again.

    Narcissists have taken over yoga and spirituality, led by even worse narcissists.

    Forget John Friend and Anusara, that is just symptomatic of the disease that is mastecising (Is that spelled correctly? When cancer reaches your bones…..) that has permeated itself throughout the yoga and spirituality community.

    Until that is solved, I do not feel either of us will get our wish.

  3. Marisa Wittebort says:

    Yeah! I love seeing another one of my teachers on Elephant. Love the article. Way to go! See ya tomorrow for some immersion awesomeness.

  4. Carrie says:

    I couldn't agree more. Take a few classes in a couple of the more popular studios in DC and you'll see Narcissist Central in full display by both the teachers and their preening students. I can't even imagine what's it like in the well known studios in LA.

  5. Harleigh Quinn says:

    Thank you.
    Sometime I feel as though I am insane or have two heads when I make these observations and others say I am just a bitter individual.
    I know that's not true, so it's good to hear from someone they have not drunk the Kool-ade and have seen it as well.

  6. yogijulian says:

    nicely done – loved it! i hope william broad comes across this.. 🙂

  7. JoeC2K says:

    Thanks for the great, thought provoking article 🙂

    I really don't know anything about Anusara except what I've read about the past few weeks. Actually I didn't know about the "scandal" until I saw a link on and then read more about it. I really don't trust gurus either but I find all this fascinating. I mean the psychological dynamics of the scandal. I remember seeing a video of John Friend one time and just after listening to him talk thought he was a fake. Just look at him too. Honestly, he doesn't really even look the part…

    Anyway, what really bothers me about this scandal is how all of the "senior" Anusara teachers supported his indiscretions and hypocrisy for so long. I can see how JF got caught up in all this. He had all these really attractive women almost worshipping him so I see how he gave in to the temptations. Hopefully all of this has been therapeutic for him. But how can anyone ever trust these senior teachers again? How can they take themselves seriously as teachers of yoga? They seemed to be ascending to the rock-star status themselves with all their Anusara workshops and Yoga Journal conferences around the globe so maybe they were caught up in this fame and fortune as well. I tend to think that they all had a vested interest in the success of Anusara yoga and therefore were willing to overlook many things and disregard their intuition. Then when the evidence of his hypocrisy became overbearing they finally listened to their intuition and resigned.

    One thing about all of this – Cannot one can judge the tree by its fruit?? The fruit of the Anusara tree seems fairly poisonous to me…

  8. JoeC2K says:

    Thanks for your post. BM culture?? Would you please explain?

    It's understandable that narcissists use spirituality as another means assert themselves and their superiority over others…

  9. amma lover says:

    To help with this guru rebellion I offer this. AMMA the hugging saint. She is an enlightened yogic saint, who millions consider a Guru. To my knowledge she has no scandals following her. She has done amazing things all over the world and she does an American tour every year and has open darshan where she hugs thousands or tens of thousands of people.

    If you are saying that gurus do not exist or that you do not believe in the myth without actually being in the presence of one, then how can you so firmly renounce them? Read about her, go get a hug, do a workshop, and then you can denounce them having at least met one.

    Lastly, Gurus realized the practices of yoga, if you don’t believe in them then don’t teach yoga, teach acrobatic classes that enhance you libido and make the students feel good. Call it NA GO MA.

  10. I've been to Amma, here in DC, and it really seemed a lot like indian Scientology to me. And yes, I was in her presence, and received a hug, which was rushed and tense.
    I suddenly knew what Jonestown must have felt like.
    Sorry, I really couldn't drink the Kool-Ade on that one.
    And yes, I have been in the presence of TRUE spiritual masters.

  11. Joe,
    email me at [email protected], and I will be welcome to explain, though there is an article here on Elephant Journal called "what is anicca, really?" that also explains, at least partly.

  12. […] Another contributing factor to inappropriate student-teacher relationships is an often unacknowledged power relationship. This is particularly true in Zen Buddhism where the relationship between teacher and student is very intimate. Teachings are given in private interviews, and Zen students often look to their teachers in order to validate their meditative experiences. Tibetan Buddhism also has intimate teacher-student relationships where male Tibetan lamas hold positions of authority, their followers demonstrating deference greater than that in many other forms of Buddhism in the west. Similarly, the guru-disciple relationship in yoga encourages the same sort of unwavering devotion. […]

  13. BobsBurger says:

    Harleigh Quinn aka Shiva Bodhi Dharma
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma The problem is each other usually turns into a HUGE disappointment.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes you dont have the right people in your life then
    22 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Meh. What was it that was said in the dark knight? You live long enough to be seen either as a hero or a tyrant?
    Well, I have known people way too long.
    I've sort of learned the solution is to know no one.
    Just really not care.
    Then you can't be disappointed. 😉
    22 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes I choose to care but not expect anything in return which leaves me pleasently surprised. you have a very pessemistic view on life. remember it works both ways with projection.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Adam Brown The veil we view others through is sometimes our own tendencies. Perhaps you care to know no one because then you can't disappoint anyone.
    22 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Laurie AkaMom Overbey i am sooo there shiva!
    22 hours ago · Like · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma I know, Laurie, I know.
    Adam, that's been a tool of narcissists for a while: "What you really see in others you see in yourself…"
    Sorry, but Bullshit.
    I just learned my mother sold items that were precious to me. This same woman also put my cats out during the two coldest months of the year.
    Each time when confronted, she said she knew nothing about it.
    Correct me if I am wrong, however I KNOW I would not have done that to her or ANYONE, so I really don't see how I am seeing in someone what I hold within myself.
    Therefore I call that a fallacious argument with more holes than fishnet stockings, and the holes are just as large.
    22 hours ago · Like · 1
    Jamie Grimes I am sorry you are sooooo angry at life, I really hope you find some peace and joy.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma that's a little condescending to speak that way about someone's misfortune, which sort of makes my point, doesn't it? 😉
    22 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes im being genuine, your perception has you constantly on the defensive. is it so hard to believe someone really wishes you peace and joy.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma No.
    The perception argument fails based on how the comment was "written".
    22 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Being a writer, you notice these things. Nuances in writing, what was meant to be inflected, etc.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Laurie AkaMom Overbey nope Adam it's the disappointment others have caused, and i KNOW i would never even consider the behaviors i have had to endure from them, so I am with Shiva on this one
    22 hours ago · Like · 1

  14. BobsBurger says:

    Jamie Grimes you believe that if you choose too, I dont have to prove myself. I just see your posts all the time and they are anger and rage filled often and I went through a period where many of my posts where very angry too especially after my break up with the man i was with for 7 years so I recognize some of the pain you feel but i choose not to be angry anymore. sorry if my tone is not conveyed properly but I know my heart was genuinely going out to to even if my fb grammer didnt portray it properly.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Now who's defensive?
    Okay, I'm out.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes my feeling is that even people in your life who hurt you are there for a reason, there is a lesson to be learned even if it sucks and it hurts.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes sorry there must be no reaching you, I was attempting compassion or a connection based on similar past hurts. a way to touch or soften your heart. but you have built some strong walls that will keep everyone out even somone in your future who would love you.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma ‎"I am sorry you are sooooo angry at life, I really hope you find some peace and joy."

    The reality is the condescending nature of that statement negates all empathy you feel you have.
    There is nothing genuine about the sing songy "sooooo" in that statement , and there is no misconstruing the patronizing intention of it either.
    There is no sensitivity, It was taken as it was written and it was written as it was intended.
    Now I am done.
    22 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair If you are disappointed with someone that is your disappointment that you are having. It also means you have made a judgement on the future course of events that pertains to their reality. You have effectively brainwashed yourself into only seeing in people what you wish to see and experiencing that which fits the psychology you have placed in yourself. True belief in someone, to me, means the opposite of all that. No judgments, no disappointment, no elation for that matter. Belief in someone is having faith in their own free will to move them forward in a positive direction. Seeing them as the new being they continue to be without the seeing how you feel about them. I don't care if you are angry or lonely or hurtful or amazing, I believe you can make your "own" decisions to the "best" of your being. This is how I believe in you.
    15 hours ago · Like · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma No. It means none of that and that is new age rhetoric.
    I just can't believe the hold that the new age crap has gotten on people.
    Let me teach you some real buddhism, so we can correct this mess, please?
    15 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair troll
    15 hours ago · Like · 1
    Sean Hair I'm done
    15 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Wow. Calling yourself out, huh?
    15 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes Shiva, seriously stop trying to bring everyone down with you. You can believe whatever you choose and call it whatever you want but you just keep trying so hard to convince us that everyone sucks and that's your own drama to deal with. I don't know that buddhism encourages pushing your view on others? its one thing to voice your opinon and you've done that now your are just coming straight from a place of the ego.
    5 hours ago · Like · 1

  15. BobsBurger says:

    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Interesting. Your friend comes up, quotes a bunch of nonsense, name calls when he's proven incorrect (which is pretty much spiritual materialism/spiritual narcissism-look it up) and I'M the one bringing everybody down?
    There's an interesting study about how our society has elected to blame the victim, rather than the offending party.
    I believie this pretty much falls within that category.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma My point being there are a lot of people coming out attempting to seem better than they are, and, apparently, I succeed in illuminating how shallow and false they really are.
    Point in question: the exchange above.
    However I have noticed the trend in defending the hypocrisy, rather than the apostacy.
    Yet I'M the one with the ego?
    It would be best to know what ego is, before throwing around a term one does not understand.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma I've spent a lifetime understanding what ego is.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Now you can delete me, as most are wont to do, when publicliy called out.
    That's also a trait I've mentioned before:
    "I can do it to you, but you can't do it to me!"
    it's no surprise our society is goingto hell in a shooing cart with a supercharger attached.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes ‎1st I dont beieve what he was saying is nonsense. and 2nd you are trolling and looking to get people angry. 3rd he wasnt professing to be a spiritual leader he was simply telling you his opinion to which you got defensive and brought in buddhism to which you apparently think you are a master but in fact you are everything opposite of buddism as a human that seems to come from only the place of ego. and 4th you are the one who is playing the victim mentality as you are whinning about your mother to me because she hurt you and how everyone wants to hurt everyone. and my advice and final word of advice is deal with your own bullshit and stop trying to push it on others. I have been as nice and polite as I can but you have not convinced me that all people suck you have only convinced me that you have serious issues and need a therapist and to be honest I still wish you a happy life because if you find joy its the only way your gonna stop trying to poison others with your ego.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Shopping cart.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes and by saying people are attempting to seem better than they are you are implying you somehow know more about them then they do and that is some serious bigheadedness. please find your own power instead of being a vampire and stealing it from others.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Jamie Grimes did you catch my sincere tone this time?
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes also you didnt call me out because I didnt do anything. all these post you have put on my page say more about who you are then about who I am.

  16. BobsBurger says:

    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma First, I have never been defensive in any of this. Observant, yes, defensive, no. It is a place of ego that has one wish the other party was defensive.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes if thats what you need to tell yourself then sure, but you obviously are a bing of PURE EGO if you cannot even see what you are doing or attempting to do to others. be honest with yourself and thats the only way you can be honest with others.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Jamie Grimes you have already decided how everything was gonna turn out because you are living a self fullfilling prohecy of negativity.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Second, no Boston mentality has been played, however it is intersting you still stand by the "sincerity" of a statement ANY writer would point out was intentionally inflammatory. Go on my wall and look up the traits of a narcissist. This is text book. No admission of guilt. No apology (refused as a power play) No ability of emapthy. They can act it our well, however there are dead giveaways of the inability to actually "feel" it ("soooooooo")
    if he doesn't know what he's talking about, he shouldn't act as though he does, therefore he only made a fool of himself.
    And the attempts by you to use ego, something you know is an issue with me, bcause, as you said, you've seen my posts, without actually knowing what ego is, especially in the buddhist sense, is attempt at mirroring and projection, which are ego tools, utilize by, whom, again? 😉
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes look in the mirror

  17. BobsBurger says:

    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes I never claimed to be perfect you on the other hand claim to be a buddhist master
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma I call people out on their narcissism and false dog projections, while they attemplt to guide others, the wrong way, down the wrong path (vipassana is a good example of this. The actual Buddha meditation is samatha) and I really don't care of people like me for it or not.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma And if you knew your Buddhism, you'd realize neither did the Buddha, especially if they were bramhin.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes fair enough and I dont care if you dont like me but hang out on your own page and spill your dogma and stop hijacking others posts and being a vampire. have you gotten enough energy from me yet? when do you move on to your next victim?
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Jamie Grimes there is multiple forms of buddism and you are representing buddhism very poorly.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma So basically, I have someone that knows nothing about buddhism, Hinduism, or spirituality believing they are puttiing me in my place.
    Do I have that right?
    Correct me if I'm wrong….
    And let's not even touch on the attempted misuse of "troll".
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes if you were what you said you where you wouldnt need to convince other people, and you wouldnt feel the need to dissect everything and everybody. you are only lying to yourself. I am not a buddhism professional but…….neither are you.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Jamie Grimes I dont claim to be a proffesional anything unlike you who are a proffesional writer, proffessional spiritualist proffesional buddhist, proffessional psychologist. if you were a proffesional any of these things you wouldnt be on facebook looking for people to attack.
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 2
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma You really DON'T know anything but westernized buddhism, do you?
    See, THAT'S the bullshit I need to deal with. People that know nothing talking like they do. There are essentially 3 forms of Buddhism. All come from Hinduism (bramhinism) as a simplification. There may me many schools from there, but there are only THREE forms.
    4 hours ago · Like

  18. BobsBurger says:

    Jamie Grimes well except for maybe the writer?
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma And those "schools" are known as "lineage"
    my god, I didn't thing I would have to host a refresher course here.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma And you have the ego, which is why I have reflected it back at you, which is what I am "supposed to do" being what I say I am. 😉
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes get over yourself just because you can tell me about the history of buddhism or quot the tenants of buddism or the noble truths doestn mean you are a good buddist. many christians can quote the bible for there own means also.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes i never said I didnt have an ego at all but I listen to my heart more often you are the one trying to pretend you are the holy one
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma I never pretend anything.
    If you've read my posts, you would realize that. That's projection, hon.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma And there is nothing holy about Buddhism. It's essentially common sense. 😉
    4 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes whatever helps you sleep at night and fullfills your need to perpetuate your negative view of humanity. if you are always looking for whats wrong with people then you will always find it. and that is common sense
    4 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma However, YOU did state "there are multiple forms of Buddhism" and then essentially got butt hurt when I pointed out you were incorrect on even THAT simple point.
    4 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Said like a true narcissist. The last time i heard a statement like that was from my wife, after she lied, cheated, stole, manipulated, knocked out my teeth, unprovoked, with witnesses, and then decided she was holier than though and went to india to try to prove it.
    Right now she's under investigation by the IRS for tax fraud.
    Are you sure you don't know Ania?
    If you think this is mean, check out the history of Marpa and Naropa. 😉
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Effing iPhone spell correct. You know what I meant.
    3 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes im not butt hurt about you talking about buddhism im currently agry because you keep pulling this power play on my page. and trying to force your views on me. use your page all you want to push your agenda but learn when to walk away from someone elses page. this is your original post "The problem is each other usually turns into a HUGE disappointment" that was your opinion and now youve spent 2 days trying to push that on me. why do you feel the need to bring people down with you and suck there energy. congratulations you found me and I have tons of energy and im a fantastic target for someone like you because I do think with my heart. now find a new target because you can fill me with your seeds of doubt but I refuse to nurture that. I have a choice in the matter and now im gonna go do something productive instead of waste my time talking to a damn vampire. I know your energy you are a reptile.
    3 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Jamie Grimes no im not your ex wife and now I know exactly why I was your target thanks for the info.
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma The only person that pulled and. Ego driven power play would be you. I was informative. You elected to tattempt a personal attack that has now backfired.
    If that had nit happened, we would not be here now.
    Accountability is key.
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Actually accountability, self accountability, is the main frving force behind ANY spiritual practice.
    Yet people keep going into it like they have absolution from responsibility.
    3 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes then take some accountability
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Driving force.
    3 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes then stop just blaming your ex wife for your divorce and stop attacking women on facebook that remind you of your ex wife. move on
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma What ex wife?
    What divorce?
    Have you been paying attention, or blinded by your own ego?
    You don't think I attack male spiritual materialists (since you used the word attack, though that's really not what I'm doing. Defensive, much?) just as equally as women?
    I don't care who you are, age race, sex, sexual preference, you spout off misguided bs that sends people in th. Wring direction, making more spiritual materialists and spiritual narcissists, such as her (the inky reason she is used is because she is a PRIME example of what NOT to do) and I will pounce on you like the tiger I am.
    I came in politely and just followed the direction it was taken.
    You steered this course, not I.
    You could say I was reactionary. 😉
    3 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes no you are a true manipulator
    3 hours ago · Like

  19. BobsBurger says:

    Jamie Grimes sorry your "wife"
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Nope. Not at all. But you can project that if you like.
    I don't mind.
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Pisces, dear. I go with the flow…..
    3 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma iPhone spell forest is the worst (I let that one stand to show how bad it is)
    3 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair Just wikipidia'ed narcissism again, what do you know. Seems to me, through your posts shiva, you should have your picture in there. Hotchkiss' seven deadly sins of narcissism is particularly interesting to look at as you go through this whole thread. From your own assessment of yourself, it seems you know what is right when it come to individual spirituality and our connection with it. Hail Shiva the almighty fb profit, the all knowing one that loves all and allows all to be what they are meant to be, bull f*@king shit. You are just another lost soul who thinks they know the way. You have already failed yourself to think you have it figured out. I know I don't know anything when it comes to your spirituality. I do know what it means to be empathetic, I believe empathy allows us to truly understand another perspective. Unfortunately your brain is a limiting factor when attempting to be empathetic, judgments made by your the personality will keep you blind to the truth of those beings around you and keep you blind to the true feelings inside you and will continue to keep you blind to any teachings by any spiritual thought. Try meditating while playing basketball, kinda the same thing don't you think. Your passion will destroy you unless you let it go.
    2 hours ago · Like · 1
    Sean Hair If you are not a troll then why so much negative passion on this page, why not talk to me like you would in person.
    2 hours ago · Like · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Like a troll, you came in, flamed, and ducked out.
    2 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Operative term is "flamed".
    2 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair Wow dude, seriously wikipedia narcissistic personality disorder. Be sure to check out the symptoms section, I don't know you well enough but from what I have seen here and on your page you fit all but the jealousy and sets unrealistic goals.
    2 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair this info could save your life
    2 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes he came in to support me because he is genuinenly my friend and not a troll
    2 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Sean Hair ‎"This desire is implanted in a part of his brain that's immune to reason or argument. Consequently, there's no chance that we can get him to see that he always cavils at my attempts to promote peace, prosperity, and quality of life, both here and abroad" straight outta wiki
    2 hours ago · Like · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Still trolling, I see.
    2 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes its called support what you are doing is trolling and hijacking. this post was never about you originally now you are the main topic. YOU WIN!!!!
    2 hours ago · Like

  20. BobsBurger says:

    Shiva Bodhi Dharma The issue is you don't know me, nor how selfless inhabe been through out my life, something a narcissist is not capable of, due to it only being about them. You don't know that I put other people in the spotlight or let them take it, becaus…
    See More
    2 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair You hit numbers 2,3,5 and 7 in Hotchkiss' seven deadly sins of narcissism with that one
    2 hours ago · Like · 1
    Sean Hair well the one before
    2 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes you poor selfless thing, now tell me again about how wonderful you are and how horrible everyone else is to you.
    2 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma You don't know that i have always put others before me, due to real compassion and empathy. A narcissist would not know how to even begin to do that, since they are unable to feel compassion or empathy.

    I don't need wikipedia. I've lived w…
    See More
    2 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair You don't have to justify your selflessness to me. You stated it as fact a long time ago. "I am selfless", isn't that an oxymoron or something?
    2 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma So, please, do continue.
    2 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes did you put others before you first so you could reinforce how they let you down when they are not capable of reciprocating and on and on and on the circle goes
    2 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma I won't even correct that. I really would like to see more of your pearls of wisdom.
    2 hours ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma And, jamie, narcissist never learn the lesson. Isn't that exact type of response and attitude how we got to the point of me illustrating how little you know of even the quote you posted that began this debacle?
    Just an observation.
    2 hours ago · Like
    Sean Hair ‎"According to Hotchkiss,[8] narcissists do not recognize that they have boundaries and that others are separate and are not extensions of themselves. Others either exist to meet their needs or may as well not exist at all. Those who provid…
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    2 hours ago · Like · 1
    Jamie Grimes I know the game cause I was a vampire once too but I grew up and you will never convince me to lose faith in my fellow wo/man no matter how many buttons you attempt to push.
    2 hours ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes well hot damn sean you just hit the nail on the head
    2 hours ago · Unlike · 1
    Sean Hair elevating others, put them in the spotlight, for your self view, selfless, is important in keeping the delusion alive. Common defensive tactic for a narcissist
    2 hours ago · Like · 1
    Jamie Grimes I love people I will always love people. I will always recognize that as humans we have the ability to be good, bad and everything in between with all sorts of ugly faults myself included. damn it's good to be on this ride on spaceship earth.
    2 hours ago · Unlike · 1

  21. BobsBurger says:

    Jamie Grimes hey sean you know what im grateful for? im grateful that I woke up this morning, Im grateful the sun is shining, im grateful that I can move, play, dance, love, learn, grow at least figuratively cause we all know im not getting any taller L…
    See More
    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair I am grateful for all the life I experience, all the joy, all the pain. I am grateful for my friends who are there for me when I need help. I am grateful I know how to copy and paste;)
    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair ‎"The infant's experience of the mother was that the mother intentionally frustrated him. So one of the Objects he carries with him in his unconscious is that of an intentionally frustrating authority figure. This is one of his Objects he draws upon to help him understand his relationships and predict people's behavior in the present." wikipedia
    about an hour ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma One, jamie, your inflammatory way of addressing others she's you STILL ARE a vampire.
    You're playing to the crowd, baby, the microcosm of your ego that is supported by your friends.
    If I were a narciissist, I would be doing this in MY forum…
    See More
    about an hour ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Humans will never cease to be entertaining to me, in their self absorbed idiocy.
    It's like fear factor. The shit people will do to get on television.
    The shot people will do, thinking they are impressing their friends….lolololololol!!!!!!
    about an hour ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes im not playing the victim at all I am writing a gratitude list so that my heart can feel joy again instead of the frustration you have been attempting to feed me. try it sometimes. gratitude lists are awesome for the soul. im not trying to impress my friend he already knows who I am and he has seen me at my darkest moments in life.
    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair The shit people will do to stay on someone else's page
    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair You did take it to your own forum but no one commented so you came back over here to feed yourself some more shit
    about an hour ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes and I know what you are doing. you are gonna keep pushing buttons and trying to get me sooo angry that I delete you so then you can go on your page and talk shit about me and play the victim some more and prove to yoursefl that you already knew who and what I was and that I did exactly what you thought so you must be right again while everyone else around you is wrong and evil.
    about an hour ago · Unlike · 1
    Sean Hair ‎"This desire is implanted in a part of his brain that's immune to reason or argument. Consequently, there's no chance that we can get him to see that he always cavils at my attempts to promote peace, prosperity, and quality of life, both here and abroad"
    about an hour ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma No, no one cares about your idiotic, childish drama. And my friends work. I'm on break. 😉
    about an hour ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma But, mostly, I didn't take it to my page. And, I'm still loving the oblivity from the both of you.
    Please go on…..
    about an hour ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes youve done it over and over and over again on this thread shiva but you havent yet convinced me to hate you in fact as condescending as this sounds I feel sorry for you and how much you are hurting and I still hope you find some joy and peace in your life so that you can stop turning peoes beautiful ideologies into your own personal version of hell.
    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair ‎"The paranoid-schizoid position is characterized by part object relationships. Part objects are a function of splitting, which takes place in phantasy. At this developmental stage, experience can only be perceived as all good or all bad. A…
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    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair ‎"The anxieties of the paranoid schizoid position are of a persecutory nature, fear of the ego’s annihilation.[12]:33 Splitting allows good to stay separate from bad. Projection is an attempt to eject the bad in order to control through omnipotent mastery. Splitting is never fully effective, according to Klein, as the ego tends towards integration."
    about an hour ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma And I mean, by oblivity, the insult with one breath, yet pretend to be all holier than thou the next. That's 100% pure spiritual narcissism, right there. Can't get much purer than that. We need to bottle this.
    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair In children, inflated self-views and grandiose feelings, which are characteristics of narcissism, are part of the normal self-development. Children are typically unable to understand the difference between their actual from ideal self, whic…
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    about an hour ago · Like · 1

  22. BobsBurger says:

    Sean Hair The loss of personal boundaries, and the absorption of the self into a quasi-public world, is one of the key features associated with psychosis.
    about an hour ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Sean, do you even understand what you're pasting? I'm going to wager a big fat "No".
    about an hour ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Because everytime you make a self descriptive post, I'm laughing at you, because I recognize there is no hope for you.
    about an hour ago · Like
    Sean Hair ‎"Certain facts are clear. For instance, we must establish democracy and equality. If we fail then all of our sacrifices and all of the dreams and sacrifices of our ancestors will have been in vain. The key is to realize that Shashank keeps…
    See More
    about an hour ago · Like · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Wow….I don't even know what periodical that comes from, however it is fascinating, so, please continue, mr. Troll.
    about an hour ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes he's not a troll you are because he is welcome here and you no longer are. My first mistake was engaging you with my vision of hope and faith in humanity. Because you have no idea who and what you are if you cannot see that you have spent 2…
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    about an hour ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes I am not your evil mother or your evil wife now leave me alone to live in peace.
    59 minutes ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma You went off the reservation when you first appeared so the title fits.
    And you guys realize I will be screenshotting this for posterity, right?
    I mean, even though you don't see your own inanity, I guarantee others will enjoy this.
    55 minutes ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes Good let em read it cause anyone who thinks you are a wise holyman needs there head checked. Now leave me alone.
    30 minutes ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes In fact it will show people your true colors so by all means share away.
    29 minutes ago · Like
    Sean Hair they are already reading it
    29 minutes ago · Like
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma Your first mistake was insulting someone in a sing songy way, as though you felt youbhad a right to, and when that was pointed out, defended by attacking.
    "I can do it to you, but you can't do it to me!!!!"
    narcissism 101.
    I said a long time ago, I don't care of you delete me.
    You showed me you true colors with that one encounter.
    And, just like a narcissist, instead of apologizng for something that was blatanltly wrong to everyone but you and sean (have you noticed you are the only ones continuing this?) you decided to try to justify your action.
    Do a web search about how to deal with a narcissist, when you are done being rude and idiotic toward people, and you will see you committed the first three narciissist traits in that first exchange.
    The FIRST exchange.
    Narcissists don't like being told they are either. They respond like you did. Narcissistic rage response. It combines mirroring and projection.
    It was even pointed out directly that's what you did, an you continued to put it on me.
    So, PLEASE understand exactly what you did wrong, however, you will not.
    23 minutes ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes its the way i write when im sad, happy, angry if you actually knew me you would have understood.i did nothing wrong you are harrassing me stop now
    21 minutes ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes i see things that you post often and if i dont agree i move on because you are entitled to post what you want on your own page but you are not alllowed to be doing what you are currently doing there are rules about that now go back to your miserable existence and leave me to my normally joy filled life.
    20 minutes ago · LikeShiva Bodhi Dharma And anyone Reading back to the top of this can SEE who made the first truly inflammatory, as in DIRECTED AT SOMEONE statement, and it sure as hell wasn't ME.
    but That is exactly how narciissists operate, even when it's right in front of them, proof and all, it's somehow still someone else's fault, and not theirs.
    Again, it's in PRINT who threw the first insult and was you. And then you tried the "you're just too thin skinned" argument. I lived with people like this for over 37 years. I know those tricks.
    And now, anyone Reading this knows them too.
    19 minutes ago · Like
    Jamie Grimes by the way i bow to no man and no matter how you bully me i will not bow to you aor your will. power play over!
    19 minutes ago · Unlike · 1
    Shiva Bodhi Dharma So thank you for the entertainment on my slow first day of work.
    This was good to get me used to being not on FB while working. Even of I hav been wasting my breath because THERE IS NO CURE FIR NARCISSISM.
    12 minutes ago · Like

  23. BobsBurger says:

    Ever met the Dalai Lama? I have and from what I learned he would bitch slap you, only way to deal with such an blind

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