Disturbing “facts” re Trungpa Rinpoche on Wikipedia.

Via on Sep 18, 2009

trungpa controversies

Update: Mission Accomplished. The unsubstantiated allegations have been removed (for now). When and if there’s three on-the-record, corroborating, verifiable sources that state Trungpa Rinpoche did...those things...then, honoring Journalism Ethics 101, they have a place in his biography. Until then…their presence in his official Wikipedia biography, the most-clicked-upon top-in-google-rankings page defining who and what this great Buddhist teacher was has been amended by many of the people who knew him, and read this post over the past 32 hours. With thanks— ed.

Original post follows:

Horrifying rumors & slander re: Buddhist pioneer Chogyam Trungpa on Wikipedia. Surprised? Let’s correct it:

I know every rumor and fact there is to know about Chogyam Trungpa, Rinpoche, the Buddhist meditation master who de-mystified and made accessible the seemingly esoteric teachings of Buddhadharma, and who was the teacher of my parents. I’ve reported on them here before, seeking to draw a clear, broad line between fact and myth. I believe in openness, showing the light of day on this stuff—as did Trungpa Rinpoche himself, who never hid anything, which is part of the reason he was so well-loved and that the many myths that have sprung up about him did not fester until after he’d died.

I just happened upon his Wikipedia page, and was shocked. I couldn’t even read all of it. It’s like hanging out in the most degraded cocoon of gossip you could imagine.

Wikipedia is often made fun of for not having its facts straight—still, it is the web’s number one source for information. Chogyam Trungpa’s page has some really horrible information regarding cocaine, etc that I’ve never even heard rumors about, though I grew up in his community and write about him frequently in the public sphere these day. I’d love to hear a confirmation from some senior students that this stuff isn’t true—and, assuming the stuff on this page…

Wikipedia Biography of Chogyam Trungpa Controversies

“…Two former students of Trungpa, John Steinbeck IV (son of novelist John Steinbeck) and his wife, wrote a sharply critical memoir of their lives with him in which they claim that, in addition to his addiction to alcohol…

[...it goes on to talk about drugs, and womanizing, in a harsh light and with many unsubstaniated facts and opinions, like his treatment of women as "chattel," something I've never heard. Since some of the most vitriolic, inflammatory entries have been amended or deleted (for now) as a result of this here post, I'm not going to repeat all the details here, as "repeating rumors makes them true."]

…is BS, any of you who want to help me correct the information on this page, which we all can do, please go to that page and edit it. Anyone can do so.

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64 Responses to “Disturbing “facts” re Trungpa Rinpoche on Wikipedia.”

  1. kunga chodzin says:

    I am in favor of openness and revealing the whole truth even if it is complicated. I have been influenced by the writings of Chogyam Trungpa and follow the teachings of Shambhala. I have heard some stories from credible sources that are not as disturbing as those at Wikipedia, and I don't want to repeat them here. But I feel that a full appreciation of the teacher as a human being would ultimately be of benefit to everyone who really cares about Buddhism in America and the world.

    One reason Buddhism is able to appeal to so many people is the fact that no one in it is a god, and no one should be held up to unrealistic standards, even a great teacher. I can understand how he could be both a human being with some frailty sometimes and a great teacher other times.

  2. A comment via a friend on FB:

    "I didn't know they wrote a book, let alone with scathing remarks. I was friends with John…never even knew if he might've felt that way…I'm thinking this might have been more from her? In any case, I wasn't aware of any Coke thingy going on / not to that extent…I'm sure there was trying it and maybe more but 40k/yr….??? The women thing / you'd have to explain almost all of Buddhism for someone to get that in perspective."

  3. Guest says:

    Well done, Waylon! I see that the most lurid charges have already been appropriately toned down from a long paragraph to a single sentence.

    babydrala, I think you missed the point. VCTR did not deserve this kind of vitriolic, single-sourced abuse in what Waylon accurately describes as the single most used reference source on the web. Those of us who love him certainly won't put up with it if we can do anything about it.

    Bruce Dodds

    • babydrala says:

      I think there are at least a handful of people out there that love VCTR, but aren't in the least concerned with the wikipedia article. cheers.

      • This isn't about you, or me, or folks who already got to know VCTR's teachings. This is about newer students. Older students probably aren't reading Wikipedia to find out who he was!

  4. jonesgirl says:

    ahh.. people love to talk! I find this a very relevant topic indeed, one clearly misunderstood. How could we ever know how much or what and when? To talk about it now is only to speculate. But perhaps, at least some of the point is in the controversy. More to be understood one day we should hope. For the teachings to come through, what did this man become? The experiences he apparently had so he could fully realize for us… ah… but what do I know.

  5. Former Student says:

    Waylon, for you to claim to know everything about CTR is utter hogwash. When I was a senior student, you were a gleam in your mother's eye. John Steinbeck IV was a kusung with inside knowledge. He was also an Emmy-award winning journalist who broke the story of the Mai-Li massacre in Viet Nam on his news service. He leaked the story of the Regent's transmission of AIDS to a teenager in the Boulder paper.. Please get over yourself and hone your skills as a journalist.

    After his death, board director Marty Janowitz admitted to concerned members of the sangha that Trungpa had a huge coke habit, so start there if you want to get the facts and not spout party line BS. Kasung and kusung in service at the court knew exactly why Rinpoche stayed up till dawn most nights. Women who slept with him saw the Seconal, including Diana. He used it to come down from coke. Ciel, the teenage "consort" of Rinpoche, regularly carried his coke in bottles marked vitamin C across national borders. Perhaps if Rinpoche and her parents had a little more concern about the statuatory rape issue of him screwing a 17 year old, she might not have committed suicide.

    Continued below…

    • I will continue to hone my skills as a journalist, but I can't promise anything about getting over myself. I attended Boston University, studied with Christian Science Monitor editors (the paper VCTR admired most, my mom told me), and greatly admire Rick Fields, who I knew, and Melvin and Jim of the Sun these days.

      The above "article" is not, however, journalism. It's an open question: why is this "opinion" such a significant portion of an 800 word biography? That's not fair to his legacy, if it's not true, and the only source given is one man's memoir. The Encyclopedia Brittanica would never have admitted such unsubstantiated personal recollections to be regarded as the definitive word.

      I'm not insulting Mr. Steinbeck as a journalist. What he wrote in that excerpt was not journalism, but memoir, it came from a personal place and was, safe to say, rather one-sided in the adjectives he used. The word vitriol comes to mind.

  6. Guest says:

    I'm glad to see that many of this blog's readers have a better understanding of openness than the blogger, who wants to enlist hordes of dittoheads to erase WIkipedia he finds unnerving.

  7. Guest says:

    Sorry, that was supposed to be "Wikipedia content he finds unnerving." Interesting to see that some Tsultrim Serri corroborates the content. I will add that I also knew about the cocaine usage.

  8. Via my Dad:
    "I wouldn't be surprised if Trungpa tried everything… once. So did we all. I knew John, too, and would take his comments with a truckload of salt.
    There are people out there who still hate Trungpa, and that's life."

  9. Former Student says:

    Anyone can write anything they want on Wikipedia. Are you going to watch the CTR site 24/7 to make sure nothing "disturbing" is posted? Get a life! Talk to Janowitz, ask around about how Ciel was used as a mule before you call something "not verified". Those of us who had the courage to face the truth about CTR 25 years ago did our homework. Yeah, I'm irritated by your immature sense of self-importance. The inner mandala party line was that Rinpoche was always open, so how could you fault him? Well, there were plenty of secrets that your mother never knew because she was fringe and the fringe was always snickered about and kept in the dark. You will never be an expert in CTR, so give it up. Your father always had a healthy suspicion about the sangha when I knew him, so don't be quoting Daddy, either. He was beyond fringe.

  10. The voice of reason says:

    This is great! I am totally losing my interest in Buddhism and will certianly never pay for another Shambhala Program again.
    No one can say what enlightenment is or how it can be discovered or identified. The senior students are petty, mindwashed drones. The teacher was a self-serving hypnotist. And the children of the faithful are self-rightouse and arrogant bastards.
    There is nothing worthwhile to be found on this path. Lets all get on with better things like growing food, making art, playing music and quit pretending that there is anything to be concerned about other than the way we relate to the people in our daily lives. Just think about how much time, money and energy has been wasted persuing Trungpa and all the other false prophets.

    • Sorry you feel that way, The voice of reason.

      I'd just advise that, in my personal experience, such generalizations, whatever they apply to, are rarely accurate. And that there's not conflict between the boring, unending practice of meditation and "growing food, making art, playing music…" all of which are properly celebrated on the Shambhala path.

    • Mel says:

      Interesting perspective, voice of reason. After having spent the past three years of my life on this path I don't agree that "there is nothing worthwhile to be found on this path." Another thing to keep in mind is that Shambhala is and has been under the direction of Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche for years. When you look at what was then and what is now, you'll see two very different situations.

      We all have to find what speaks true to us. My wish is that you find whatever that is for you.

      In the meantime, calling people names is unkind no matter what tradition you come from.

  11. The voice of reason says:

    This is great! I am totally losing my interest in Buddhism and will certianly never pay for another Shambhala Program again.
    No one can say what enlightenment is or how it can be discovered or identified. The senior students are petty, mindwashed drones. The teacher was a self-serving hypnotist. And the children of the faithful are self-rightouse and arrogant bastards.
    There is nothing worthwhile to be found on this path. Lets all get on with better things like growing food, making art, playing music and quit pretending that there is anything to be concerned about other than the way we relate to the people in our daily lives. Just think about how much time, money and energy has been wasted persuing Trungpa and all the other false prophets.

  12. Former Student says:

    It is all about how we treat each other, with kindness and honesty and directness. That was not something I saw in the sangha or even in the comments on this blog. Ultimately, it's a country club cult, where everyone jockies to get close to the inner sanctum by mouthing something CTR said 20 years ago. Now the Sawang is promising siddhis? The height of spiritual materialism? The very thing his father warned us about as being the major trap of the American mind-set. And still the ditto-heads don't smell a rat. They sit, complacent and smug, in the midst of their jealousy, blind adoration, spiritual vanity, sibling rivalry and, sadly, very little spiritual growth. And they try to tell those of us who woke up to the maha-illusion that we missed the point.

    • Nathan Smith ndsmith says:

      First, you write: "(why do you keep quoting Mommy as a source? She was never in the center of the mandala back then, so quit pretending she was an expert.)"

      Then: "it's a country club cult, where everyone jockies to get close to the inner sanctum by mouthing something CTR said 20 years ago"

      Not an ounce of hypocrisy there?

      Your charges are serious and perhaps you have every reason to be angry at CTR, but is it necessary to impugn anyone and everyone for god knows what? And what's with all this loudmouthing about journalistic integrity while you trumpet your credentials in one hand and dismiss the "cult" with the other?

  13. At the risk of sounding glib, he's dead – get over it.

    All of you.

  14. Wow. Well, thanks for that, Hunter. At least you have the guts to put your name to your opinions. Sorry I've offended you.

    BTW, Trungpa Rinpoche has never got me laid, or a seat on the Council, or even made me look cool or mysterious—who should I complain to, Hunter?

  15. G8ful Current Stdent says:

    Dear Former Student,
    Thank you for your comments. Although I am a current student of Shambhala, I am more interested in getting to the truth than I am in perpetuating myths about Chogyam Trungpa. I am grateful to the Steinbecks for giving us an insiders view of the era. I am also very saddened that so many senior students of Trungpa continued to cover up his secretive coke use. It definitely changes things for me.

  16. Jeff Fuller says:

    Jeff Fuller here. I stumbled across this blog conversation quite by accident. [Full disclosure: I took refuge vows with VCTR in 1978, attended 1982 seminary, and completed ngondro in 1987. I served as a kusung to the Vidyadhara, and was in charge of the Regent’s kusung service in Halifax. In the spring of 1989, two years after Rinpoche’s death and a few months after the VROT scandal erupted, I left the sangha and never looked back.]

    I once heard a zen story that goes something like this: The gateway to enlightenment is protected by two enormous temple guardians whose names are “Paradox” and “Confusion.” The only way to make it past these guardians, the only way to enter the land of Big Mind, is to utter a simple phrase — but it must be spoken with complete sincerity. The phrase is “I don’t know.”

    How can a teacher engage in both (presumably) highly enlightened activity and (presumably) highly confused activity? I don’t know. What I do know is that as soon as I take a step back and admit that I actually don’t know, my compulsive need to know falls away, and all I am left with is my paradoxical, confusing experience. Groundlessness.

    When I can manage to abide in that weird, wobbly place of neither denying nor defending my experience, I discover that I have already begun moving past the guardians at the gate. I have begun to move beyond content. If I am then motivated to act, my action is a bit more spontaneous and free of agenda, a bit less of a knee-jerk reaction arising from my beliefs and conditioning.

    This may sound bizarre, but I felt a surge of appreciation and warmth toward everyone who responded to Waylon’s post. I believe every single post contains the truth. Not the kind of “truth” that takes sides, not the kind of “truth” that starts wars, but the kind of truth that simply exposes what is. Each post reveals the truth of what’s going on inside each writer. (The fact that some contributors didn’t feel comfortable enough or safe enough to use their own names suggests that the sangha has a ways to go before it lives up to the buddhist ideals of kindness, non-judgment, candor and fearlessness.)

    Like many of those who wrote in, I come down on the side of honesty and transparency. Yes, let’s not spread rumors and gossip. Yes, let’s correct what is unfounded or inaccurate. But let’s also not embellish, or spin, or deny, or fear the facts. If I am shocked by something, what does that show me about myself? When reality suddenly collides with my beliefs about reality, why do I become angry and defensive, even violent? What’s really going on?

    One of the posts contained an excerpt from Cutting Through, where VCTR speaks directly to this very issue: “…‘I’m quite certain the guru doesn’t do harmful things. Guruji is a perfect being and whatever Guruji does is right. Whatever Guruji does is for me, because he is on my side. So I can afford to open. I can safely surrender. I know that I am treading on the right path.’ Something is not quite right about such an attitude. It is, at best, simple-minded and naive…”

    I’m sure I read that book, but for some reason I don’t remember that passage; reading it just now floored me. Rinpoche, in no uncertain terms and early on (1973), warned us that the kind of surrender he was speaking about — actual surrender of the ego — has nothing to do with safety. Practitioner beware.

    Was Rinpoche a living Buddha, always and only acting for the benefit of beings? Was he totally free of obscurations and attachments? Was he addicted to alcohol and sex and possibly cocaine? And what about the Regent?

    I don’t know. I simply don’t know. What I do know is that somehow, because of the time I spent around Rinpoche and the Regent, my ego was thoroughly (and un-safely) exposed. I never thought I’d say this, but 20 years later, I’m grateful.

    • David Clarke says:

      Thank you Jeff for your equanimity and thank you Waylon for providing a venue wherein we might shine a light onto our hopes and fears, our beliefs, our bias, our anger and self-deceit, our baseness, our god-like apprehensions. Whatever helps us to see ourselves (and those we would follow) more clearly must surely be of benefit. We all struggle with being human and this struggle takes many forms. The most important thing we must do when part of a dialogue is to listen. The Lojong slogans are a most potent way of relating with the world, of relating with our egos. In Always abide by the three principles we are instructed to keep the two vows, to refrain from outrageous action and to develop patience. We are given these instructions not because we will abide by their terms but precisely because we will not. Of the three the third is most germane: "Usually there is extreme confusion about patience.That is to say, you can be patient with your friends but you cannot be patient with your enemies; you can be patient with people whom you are trying to cultivate or your particular protegees, but you cannot be patient with those outside your protoge-ism. That kind of extreme is actually a form of personality cult, the cult of yourself, which is not such a good idea. In fact, it has been said that it is absolutely not a good idea." (CTR) We all have a tendency to blame or see ourselves as separate or distinct. Yet it is only by experiencing our own flaws and failings (as well as those of others) that we are able to appreciate being human as there is nothing more human than self-indulgence. I am far too busy coming to terms with my own self-indulgence, moment by moment, to deconstruct the history of other people's. At the same time I shall endeavor to keep my heart, my mind and my eyes open.

    • Nick says:

      Thank you for that intellegent passage.

  17. Student Now and Then says:

    Trungpa was bland, boring, conventional, safe, and his teaching and practices were so easy.
    Actually I was part of his near-circle for a brief-ish time and, through fault of my own, ended up broken, tied in a knot, in torment. (Some of this was heredity, no doubt–my siblings ended up the same way through quite different circumstances.)
    I got much too close, much too close. Still, Trungpa cared enough about me that, even as he was tossing me on a trash heap, he seems to have peered into my future and given some good advice that came in handy some decades later. Nevertheless, after decades of struggle, I crawled out of hell–and I still love the guy.
    Steinbeck IV might have been quite right. Nonetheless, confirming same through another source or two is just good journalistic practice, speaking of which I gotta go sit now. 'Bye!

  18. Joana Smith JoanaSmith says:

    (Just to clarify, this is Nathan Smith–I was logged in through my wife's computer, same person as the "ndsmith" commenter above)

    @Boulder Native, @Former Student, @Hunter Thompson: Hey, I'm not engaging in "hero worship" or bad faith. I'm genuinely interested in this issue.

    @Hunter Thompson: I'm not finding the quoted statement you cite. The statement I'm referring to says: "What he wrote in that excerpt was not journalism, but memoir, it came from a personal place and was, safe to say, rather one-sided in the adjectives he used." I took that to mean that Waylon was distinguishing between journalism and memoir, which seems legitimate.

    The thing I'm objecting to is the ad hominem arguments proliferated by people on this site. Understandably, Waylon's statement that "I know every fact and rumor about Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche" was hyperbole, but it doesn't follow that his desire to distinguish fact from rumor and to energize a community to ammend wikipedia (a community-driven web-based information resource) is misguided.

    I understand that Waylon's personality may rub some people the wrong way, but I don't see why his personal ambitions should be stomped on en route to I-don't-know-what.

    Personally, I'm just as frustrated with the ambiguous posts of other students, the "I don't know" variety. On one side, people are wantonly flinging mud (so it's hard to discern fact from smear) and on the other side, there's just reticence and silence. Rather unsatisfying. That's my point.

    -Nathan Smith (yes, living in Texas, born in Boulder)

  19. Via a consort of the Vidyadhara who gave permission to post her thoughts but asked to remain anonymous:

    Dear Waylon,
    I am writing to share this with you, encouraged by [a friend] to speak. I hope this helps give a more accurate picture of who Trungpa Rinpoche was, and still is.
    Yours,
    X

    I hope you don't mind, I feel I would like to share my own experience of Trungpa Rinpoche. I was a consort, and never had any experience such as the one described below. I was always treated with love, affection and humour. There was no escaping my mind when I was with Trungpa Rinpoche, and being a consort was not about sex, but about waking up, and connecting to passion without grasping. There was so much more that I learned from Rinpoche, from singing the anthem with him at dinner, playing the Qualities game, and now, all these years later, he is near me at a heartbeat, waking me up still.

    I knew John and Nancy as well, and don't really know what their experience of him was, but I personally feel that what they have written is an exaggerated and inaccurate picture of who Trungpa Rinpoche was.
    Thanks, X.

    —My response—
    Thanks so much, X. I was and am friends with several consorts and have always heard positive things. My mom was asked once to be with Rinpoche, she declined and they went on being close as close can be for 10 years. No "retribution." I was simply saying that this stuff was on Wikipedia, and that I thought it was way out of line with what I'd heard, and that it should be taken down unless anyone could back that stuff up.

    If you do want to share this on our article, with or without your name, it might help to quiet down the folks who think Rinpoche was some sort of rock star.

    Yours,

    Way

  20. Anita says:

    um imho – do ya all wanna be right or do you want to be love? just sayin…

  21. Via Judy:

    I'm not sure that this post made it to Sangha-announce but here it is. Cheers, Judy.

    I went to seminary with John but did not know him well. I recently spoke with someone who did know him well who says that Nancy's part of the book is filled with inaccuracies. She was the one who saw that it got published after John IV's death.

    I don't intend to read the book and am not in a position to know the truth behind the stories, but I suggest that anyone who does know the truth, go to Amazon.com where one can buy the book and also write a review.
    The book has received 9 reviews so far, most of them giving it 5 stars.

    Submit your review if you are in a position to comment.

    In the dharma, Judy

  22. Boulder Observer says:

    The fact that Waylon Lewis turns not the Buddha eye but the eye of denial toward serious illicit drug dependecy, sexual abuse, pedophilia, rape, and other ethical perversions will certainly do wonders for his political future.

  23. Alex G - CTR student says:

    The issue in question is not whether Trungpa Rinpoche tried cocaine. He never hid the fact that he experimented with the drugs which were popular amongst his students in the 1970s. As a kid, I remember sitting around the kitchen table with friends and family, as Rinpoche's wife told a touching and hilarious tale of Rinpoche trying LSD in their Montreal apartment, just after they arrived in North America. What is memorable about the story is that the primary reaction the drug elicited from Rinpoche was laughter. Doing such drugs was clearly not a preoccupation for him.

    I wonder where John Steinbeck Junior arrived as the magic number of $40,000 a year. Wow! That's a BIG number. I met Steinbeck in Boulder in 1978 when I was a high school kid, and I remember him as a profoundly morose and somewhat lost alcoholic. Although a nice man, I question his recall and narrative skills from that time.

  24. Boulder Observer says:

    .Steinbeck was clean and sober before he did the research on VROT and VACT in 1987. If you want a mature dialogue, go over to Beliefnet (referenced above) and drop these ad hominem attacts. This isn't about who said what. It's about the need to keep secrets and suppress investigation with arrogance and censorship.

  25. I believe the people most upset on this post do have to be taken seriously. They are holding some strong feelings based on personal experience, not hearsay. Feelings which suggest that what they witnessed has left them shaken and sorry they didn't speak up more, object, step in, resist.

    The Vidyadhara’s actions, his teachings/empowerments and his personal outcomes are not each the same thing. One can talk about the merits of one and the harmful outcomes from another, and love him unreservedly as a teacher, friend and guide.

    No one “embodies” enlightenment. Whatever life and body we’re handed to live through at this birth becomes a second-by-second gamble with fun, distasteful, indifferent, tricky and, rarely and sometimes, “enlightening” outcomes… if we are paying very close attention to life as it passes, as few of us are. That is perhaps why one of the nicknames for the Kagyu is the “mishap lineage,” is it not?

    I personally feel that Rinpoche was a bit disappointed in us. We could have given him more of a fight…. continued at – http://mishaplineage.wordpress.com

  26. damcho raphel says:

    Reading recommendations: 1: The Double Mirror, by Stephen T. Butterfield. This is a brave, honest and intimate memoir. 2: The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power, by Joel Kramer & Diana Alstad. This is more generic in that it's not specifically about CTR and Vajradhatu, but there is a huge value in thinking about patterns of human behavior that show up repeatedly in many different religious organizations of all different traditions. Even if we are students of The One And Only CTR, we are still human, and so was he, and we can recognize ourselves in these pages.

  27. (Just entering this so I can subscribe to any future comments.)

  28. anti-vitriolic says:

    too much talk, too little information. What is the problem with Trunpga and cocaine, or women? He was a man, for god's sake. A Mahasiddha, but a man! No dharma is affected, just listen to him.

  29. [...] I didn’t like this at all, trust the English to put a damper on things. Good old Wikipedia was a little more life-affirming: “the quality of being modest, reverential, even politely [...]

  30. jan hendrik says:

    Would Trungpa care? I guess not. Then why would you? What is it that you devote your energy to? Memories of your own thoughts about thougts of athers about Trungpa??
    Maybe there might be something better here and now.

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  33. Melissa says:

    I am supposed to take the refuge vow this weekend-this is the first time I have heard any of these allegations and I am horrified! I dont know what to do now…I was so ready and excited to take the vow and follow this path, but I dont know if I can follow the teachings of someone who lived such a hypocritical life.

  34. Would you be inquisitive about exchanging hyperlinks?

  35. jesse mackinnon says:

    +
    westerners are so delusional re: eastern mystics and guru's. I have friends that still worship Osho never bothering to investigate how much pain and suffering he and his minions visited against those in his own community and neighbors in Oregon. Or Muktanada and the many children who testified to being raped. In a way trungpa and the Viceroy were the worst -deluded into believing they could do anything and be above rthe consequences. I have the theory that many of these from humble asian villages achieve, through Karma and discipline high levels of awareness perhaps just short of full enlightenment and are brought to the west where thousands of beautiful mostly young americans worship them and believe they can do no wrong —–and they fail the final test for the ego

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  37. David says:

    Just saw Crazy Wisdom, and I've come to the conclusion that Trungpa was nothing more than a cult leader whose cult is still apologizing for him to this day. He was nothing but another jive-assed preacher working only for his own benefit, and he took a lot of innocent people with him.

  38. edward says:

    Missed it all.
    All of the books, tapes and seminars. Difficult for me to accept that someone addicted to alcohol, drugs and sex would have the clarity of mind to express all that knowledge and accomplish so much. Yes, i was not there but am here now.
    "We could have given him more of a fight…. " Yes, i sometimes consider the viewpoint that certain teachers create an environment and/or atmosphere around them just to see what we will do. A few might go to extremes to shock us us out of our habitual patterns and self-absorption. I am delighted that Trungpa maintains his presence in our thoughts, discussion, gossip and even unfair analysis. Why – because he is still here. Someone reading this will log off, and simply sit quietly for awhile and maybe – simply be. Trungpa is gone? ;)

  39. That Steinbeck quote really is the crux of the matter: it's all innuendo and attitude, rumor and insinuation. I was shocked mostly because as far as I can tell Trungpa Rinpoche was always wide-open about everything, even commissioning a independent study on the Merwin incident by interested Naropa Institute students.

    It was only after his death that I remember the whole "rock star guru" thing, the myths, building up and bubbling over. While he was alive, he was clearly outrageous and unconventional, but his openness dispelled any sense of corruption, cult, mistreatment of others—which was counter to his life's work.

  40. Openness doesn't mean allowing for total BS and slander to be among the first things that would-be newbies interested in meditation might read, I don't think.

    If it is true, let it stand of course.

    If it's not, and again I've grown up in the community, which is quite open (see reference to Dr. Levy's comment, below, about cause of death), and would think I would have at least heard some rumor. It's not too big of a community not to be intimately knit, after all.

  41. Guest says:

    What exactly, is this "enlightenment" and "enlightened activity" that you are refering to?
    Who, specifically, did he transmit it to and how was this achived.
    Can you tell the difference between someone who is "enlightened" and someone who is not?
    If you can tell the difference please explain the difference to us in detail.
    Without answers to these questions I will, for now, hold these types of remarks as the results of post hypnotic suggestion.

    In the vision of the Great Eastern Sun

  42. Davee says:

    Tsultrim, thank you for the post. It sounds like you witnessed cocaine use?

  43. Guest says:

    That openness could also be brazen / sociopathic disregard for others and messianic delusion that he was untouchable.

  44. Quite a strong allegation, though technically a fair point. Would seem fair-er, and less like shooting from the hip, if you weren't anonymous.

  45. Strong words are light in the wind of anonymity.

    I knew Rick Fields, and regard him as one of my heros and mentors. Thanks for reminding us of him. As for the rest, good points you have many. You also seem pretty !@#$%^&* at me for even raising the question of why this stuff is out there, if it's not verified, on the biggest reference site on the internet. Sorry I've offended you.

  46. I'm not disputing the accuracy of the quote as it relates to its source—I'm disputing the accuracy of what the quote says.

    Readers of that Wiki entry may not remember that, rightly or wrongly, Wikipedia—though it comes off like an encyclopedia (fact)—is user-generated. It's not fact in the same way that the Encyclopedia Brittanica was fact. Still, we tend to regard it as such.

    Quoting an opinion from a memoir as a 200-word part of an 800-word biography, that new would-be meditators read first seems irresponsible as a way to treat the legacy of Chogyam Trungpa.

    Wikipedia gets more traffic in a day that elephantjournal.com + Shambhala.org in a year—it's the first place newbies will look. If it's true, let it stay in the spirit of openness and honesty, and then I for one will have to wrestle with what that means for my relationship with his teachings and legacy. If however it's one man's allegations, it shouldn't be on there.

    If he just tried it that would be in keeping with trying LSD, keeping an open mind. If it was a serious habit, to my mind, that's more confusing.

  47. This is more basic than all that. This is about putting opinion out as "fact." That's not appropriate, in any context, spiritual or temporal.

  48. Why does it matter? Because wikipedia is often the first place young people look when checking something out—it comes out at the top of Google, generally.

    I think my generation, and younger, tends to get attracted to and hung up on the juicy controversial cult rock star allegations, and is either offput and doesn't enter the path–Wikipedia gets more traffic every day than elephantjournal.com + Shambhala.org + all the books Shambhala sells in all those bookstores in a whole year.

    If newbies encounter this stuff, assuming it's not true or being represented fairly, they may get a bit distracted, entertained, confused…and forget to read his books, as you say, and learn to meditate and work with their mind/heart, which was the thrust of Rinpoche's whole life and teachings.

    Yours,

    Waylon

  49. Thanks, Davee, for all your measured, deliberate thoughts on this.

    I'm pretty sure we all would have heard these rumors in our own community if the drug stuff was true. It's pretty horrible that it's taking up so much space on the basic biography where so many would be meditation newbies will click first, and possibly last.

    Yours,

    Way

  50. Funny, Preposerous Gradiosity is the working title for my autobiography.

    I'm not quoting my Mommy as a source–I'm referencing having grown up in what was, is a rather intimate, open community. I've talked this over with fellow "Dharma Brats" and none of us heard a peep of this, and we don't believe it, and we're glad it's gone from Wikipedia.

    Check your sources: the Steinbeck book was not written by Steinbeck, your idol, but by his wife, posthumously. Or so I'm told—I don't own the vaunted work of journalistic integrity you're referring to.

    I don't mind an honest debate. Your attitude is not only condescending, but aggressive. Perhaps, as VCTR said, you need to practice more often. So do I, of course!

  51. I do know the guidelines, and they've been met with widespread disdain by the journalistic community. Wikipedia a wondrous user-generated creation—but it tends toward opinion and slander, since it's vulnerable to minority input.

    I don't mind the content on there because I don't like it—I've been clear about that. I said at the outset "If it's true, let it stand." Trungpa Rinpoche was all about openness, in my experience and the experience, more importantly, of his community of students.

    But if it's not true, and there's only one source for this, and it's Steinbeck's wife paraphrasing Steinbeck posthumously, that shouldn't be sufficient to take down the legacy of someone who worked tirelessly, and unconventionally, for the benefit of others.

    As for this editorial, it is presented as opinion, not an encyclopedic entry defining someone's reputation with "facts."

  52. Joana Smith JoanaSmith says:

    How can we believe what you are saying, Old Timer? You slander Waylon, who has publicly stated that he is no longer pursuing a City Council seat, for no particular reason at all. Are you just launching the same libel at the grave of Chogyam Trungpa? Who knows? I wish you would have stuck with the "facts" rather than tarnishing your entire entry with this silly and entirely false allegation at the end. I wanted to believe that you were finally confirming what people have supposed, but there is no clarity here.

  53. Joana Smith JoanaSmith says:

    What is this nonsense about Waylon stating that Steinbeck IV didn't author his own memoir? In his comment, he was clearly distinguishing between "memoir" a personal story of recollection and "journalism" which takes an objective stance. Since the charges came in a book with the former purpose, not the latter, he was simply questioning whether these were the opinions of Steinbeck or if they met with the same journalistic standard of a piece that he would have published in a newspaper or magazine as a professional journalist.

    Nevermind the ridiculous slow-to-post whining about deletion of posts that are clearly published.

  54. Daniel says:

    This sounds like casuistry to me — and not very polite behavior for a guest.

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