Why elephant isn’t Vegan (but is all about Veganism).

Via on May 29, 2010

The point of the legend of the blind men and the elephant is that we all think our way is best—when, really, if we could open our eyes, we’d all see that what we’re holding is just one aspect of the elephant—truth.

Republicans, Democrats, rich, poor, black, latino, white, Asian…we all fundamentally want just about the same thing. To live a good life that’s also good for others, and our planet.

And that is our mission—not any one aspect of the elephant in particular. ~ WL.

~

Why elephant isn’t any one thing.

“I’m confused with EJ. Stick to your mission statement please. You seem to losing focus…”

We are about veganism. We are about ahimsa.

We are about mindfulness. We’re also about mountain biking, Buddhist meditation, yoga, working with anger, active citizenship, the arts, enlightened education, feminism, natural products, greenwashing, social media…we’re about a lot of things. If you’d like to contribute an article, you’re welcome to—on any subject that inspires (or irritates) you.

Fundamentally, as I said below to a few of our passionate, committed vegan readers who had a problem (understandably) with a recent post re “classic” camping recipes that we posted for Memorial Day, we’re about taking responsibility for our actions, and having a good time doing so!

PS: The one thing I should have added is a personal invitation to Patrick, a concerned, active, passionate reader—to contribute an article about said passion or concern. We don’t have to agree. We do have to stay open, and contribute to one another.

That’s generosity, which as they say in the Buddhist tradition, is the quality that “produces peace.” You know, ahimsa.

~

elephantjournal.com

We just did an article on our mission recently, and it being about inclusion, not exclusion. A community based on dialogue, disagreement, not one voice. In today’s fractured media environment, I understand that we are consumers of media are quickly getting used to media as a club—MSNBC vs. Fox, etc.

As President Obama said in his recent Commencement speech, that’s sad and even unhealthy. I personally can’t stand to watch Fox. But if I did, more, I might hear some new things, whether true or not, and have to expand my horizons and deepen my study of why I believe something different.

Pamela, Patrick, while I personally (Waylon speaking) am vegetarian, and with Gary Smith‘s encouragement may be heading toward veganism (have more or less given up milk), there is nothing in our mission statement about veganism. We are all about mindfulness–responsibility—so, naturally, we focus on organics and vegetarian diet and sustainably and more humanely-raised fish and meat.

I understand and agree that killing animals for pleasure amounts to a daily holocaust in the US, particularly in factory farms.

A robust conversation, via our Facebook Page.

Clint, Nathan and eight others like this.

Patrick
I’m not sure why I’m following this page anymore. It clams to be about conscious living, sustainability, promoting well being etc etc…yet I see posts like this promoting cow’s flesh, dead fish, chicken’s eggs, pig’s flesh, cow’s milk etc. Can you explain WHY any of these things are sustainable, conscientious and enlightened? And please don’t talk to me about humanely raised/treated animals. Humane would be not killing/using/exploiting period.

I also see things like promoting corporations like NIKE on this page as well. Are you kidding me? NIKE? Sweatshops? People making those products can’t even afford to BUY THEM THEMSELVES. Have you ever heard about the working conditions? NIKE is far from a corporation promoting human rights issues. Plus, shoes made out of animal skin….again, not ethical or sustainable or a great situation for the animals they are ripped from.

I’m not trying to be rude, I just don’t understand this website.

Clint
Because not every one of this page’s 16,000 readers fall into every single category of green, conscious, spiritual, sustainable, enlightened, mindful, AND vegan. Some are only interested in one or two aspects of the website. No need to stop reading many great articles when one or two oppose your personal views.

Pamela
I agree with Patrick. I’m confused with EJ. Stick to your mission statement please.You seem to losing focus, camping recipes made from dead animals is hardly enlightening.

Rick
Disagreeing with EJ from time to time is exactly why it’s a good site. What is enlightening is realizing that people have a broad spectrum of beliefs and backgrounds–even among its core audience of eco/yoga/meditation types. EJ’s slogan (mission?) is “living the mindful life.” you may totally disagree that eating meat, no matter how it’s raised is mindful. not everyone shares that opinion.

I disagree with some of the “green” articles on the site, because they don’t seem to stand up to science (the Robert Kennedy Jr. post about vaccines causing autism, in particular, raised my hackles). Obviously it’s a controversial subject, and I know that people feel very strongly in the other direction. So–the issue seems to be: how can you be mindful of your own beliefs, and be mindful of your own prejudices, and be respectful of others when they don’t agree with you? and are you mindful of how fixed/attached you are to your point of view, and is that always a good thing? when seen from that perspective, Elephant Journal does a decent job.

Jennifer
Clap clap clap to Rick. I am just a recent follower of Elephant Journal but so far, all the articles has been inspirational to me about ‘living the mindful life’ in such a way that it celebrates life by promoting diversity with acceptance and love! I too would like to say thanks to Elephant Journal for sharing its positive vibe!!!

Bryan
Camping is an activity that will increase the connection to our planet, living things, oneness, etc…So IMHO Elephant is wise to see it as a “gateway activity” toward sustainability for “common” and or non-Buddhist folk. Teach them to feed themselves and they will come. Right on Waylon.

elephantjournal.com

elephantjournal.com

We just an article on our mission recently, and it being about inclusion, not exclusion. A community based on dialogue, disagreement, not one voice. In today’s fractured media environment, I understand that we are consumers of media are quickly getting used to media as a club—MSNBC vs. Fox, etc.

As President Obama said in his recent Commencement speech, that’s sad and even unhealthy. I personally can’t stand to watch Fox. But if I did, more, I might hear some new things, whether true or not, and have to expand my horizons and deepen my study of why I believe something different.

elephantjournal.com
Pamela, Patrick, while I personally (Waylon speaking) am vegetarian, and with Gary Smith’s encouragement may be heading toward veganism (have more or less given up milk), there is nothing in our mission statement about veganism. We are all about mindfulness–responsibility–so, naturally, we focus on organics and vegetarian diet and sustainably and more humanely-raised fish and meat.

I understand and agree that killing animals for pleasure amounts to a daily holocaust in the US, particularly in factory farms.

About Waylon Lewis

Waylon Lewis, founder of elephant magazine, now elephantjournal.com & host of Walk the Talk Show with Waylon Lewis, is a 1st generation American Buddhist “Dharma Brat." Voted #1 in U.S. on twitter for #green two years running, Changemaker & Eco Ambassador by Treehugger, Green Hero by Discovery’s Planet Green, Best (!) Shameless Self-Promoter at Westword's Web Awards, Prominent Buddhist by Shambhala Sun, & 100 Most Influential People in Health & Fitness 2011 by "Greatist", Waylon is a mediocre climber, lazy yogi, 365-day bicycle commuter & best friend to Redford (his rescue hound). His aim: to bring the good news re: "the mindful life" beyond the choir & to all those who didn't know they gave a care. elephantjournal.com | facebook.com/elephantjournal | twitter.com/elephantjournal | facebook.com/waylonhlewis | twitter.com/waylonlewis | Google+ For more: publisherelephantjournalcom

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36 Responses to “Why elephant isn’t Vegan (but is all about Veganism).”

  1. Gary Smith says:

    Waylon – I appreciate that you are including vegan and animal rights voices to the discussion at Elephant. Vegans get marginalized in the media, including on Elephant. If Elephant is going to take a stand for justice, sustainability, et al, I think it's important to try to be consistent. I know that this is impossible 100% of the time.

    The reason that you are getting push back from vegans and AR people is because being vegan is so much more than a dietary choice. The choice to consume animal products affects the animals, the environment, our personal health, workers and laborers, massive food shortages all over the world, etc. So, when you post articles on "sustainable" or "humane" meat as an example, you are saying that it's okay for all the other exploitation to occur. This is then seen as being inconsistent with your mission.

    I would like Elephant to start to look at these issues as being interconnected. What I mean is that if you are moving your readers towards positive environmental stewardship, you can't be posting pro-meat articles. If you are trying to move your readers towards social justice, you can't be promoting happy meat. If you are pushing your readers towards a spiritual life, how does posting articles on wearing, eating and entertaining with animals fit in? Do your readers know how much oil is used in the production of animal products? British Petroleum. I can go on.

    If the mission of Elephant is to be mindful, then we have to start with our treatment of animals. Ignoring this issue or poking fun at it will just keep us moving towards extinction.

    • Thanks, Gary! I don't think it's fair to say that elephant is even close to "ignoring this issue or poking fun at it." As you eloquently lay out, couldn't be more important.

      What percentage of our readers are vegan? Probably more than the national average, but still a small percentage. What percentage are, like me, vegetarian? A larger slice, but still a humble one.

      I'm more interested in education that orthodoxy. I'm more interested, as ele's editor, in hosting dialogue than pretending we all think or want the same thing. I'm more interested in compassion, and keeping our eyes open to the horror that is the factory farm industry, than I am in turning off the 95% of our readers who might be open to, at least, taking a first step and cutting out chicken and beef, etc. from factory farms.

      • Gary Smith says:

        Waylon, I appreciate both Elephant and you. You're a stand up dude. My issue is that the world is on fire and everyone wants to have a discussion. What the world needs now is action. I cannot think of one behavioral change or action that an individual can take that will have as great an impact as going vegan. Give up your car and bike. Not even close. A UN study found that animal agriculture is the largest emitter of greenhouse gases. More than the entire transportation sector combined. As well as the biggest polluter of the water and the air. A University of Chicago study concluded that a vegan driving a Hummer (which would be insane) creates less greenhouse gasses than an omnivore on a bike. Going vegan saves 95 animals per year. How many dogs or cats can one person save in a year?

        I know that a lot of omnivores don't get the passion that vegans have for animals. Sit with the fact that 10 billion land animals are going to be slaughtered this year. Just in the US. That number rises to around 50 billion worldwide. Over 99% of those animals come from the factory farm system. The amount of cruelty is beyond what you could imagine. I like to tell my non-vegan friends that if they knew what I knew, if they saw what I saw and if they visited the farm sanctuaries that I have visited, the idea of eating meat, dairy and eggs would make them physically sick.

        The corporations, governments and media all want us to sit around and chat while they continue to bludgeon the environment and create poverty around the world.

        • Beautifully put. Ironically, however, I think you contradict (in a good way) your first point: "My issue is that the world is on fire and everyone wants to have a discussion. What the world needs now is action."

          You then eloquently describe—talk about—why this matters. The education that you offer us leads to changed thoughts, ideas—then actions.

          Your contributing here does have an effect on me, for one, and probably for many readers (your articles are hugely popular).

          And elephant's ability to keep a big tent (editorially-speaking) so anyone can come in whether to click on something serious or fun or sexy or controversial…and then get hit on the head with these ideas that they might not have thought they cared about…that will create some change, I think.

          Preaching to the choir, agreeing on all points, accepting only one point of view…may make elephant right. But it won't change our society much.

          • Gary, others, one question here:

            I am thinking of starting a new section/button on elephant, but don't want to call it "vegan," 'cause I want non-vegans to read and learn and enjoy it…thinking of calling it "animal rights" or "ahimsa"? Thoughts?

          • Padma Kadag says:

            Ahimsa requires compassion for all beings as well as equal tolerance and loving kindness. If Vegans can satisfy all of these categories then fine…but there seems to be a level of intolerance and anger which has no plce in Ahimsa.

        • A few more http://www.facebook.com/elephantjournal comments
          Tracy M
          Thank you Gary! You said it better than I could!

          Beth KE
          thanks for being open minded and including things for the wide variety of perspectives and people who really like your page and posts!!! namaste

          Lilian H
          While vegans are marginalized in the media, its sad that it takes a closed-minded one to conjure such a response from Waylon- couldn't Patrick have made his point about the importance of veganism without bashing those of us who -choose- to eat meat?. After two years of being a healthy vegetarian, my body -craved- meat, and was not functioning properly until I had it. I respect vegans and vegetarian's choices to eat as they will, but why can't a faction of them respect mine? Being open minded is a two way street, but all too often it doesn't seem to work that way. Radicalism helps no one, and that is the beauty of this article, and EJ in general- it recognizes that no ONE way is completely right or wrong.

        • Padma Kadag says:

          Hi Gary… I am not Vegan. I save 1,000's of animals each year. In the Buddhist Tradition of Saving Lives. I save Night Crawlers destined for fishing bait and also brine shrimp. I have saved fish for bait. Turtles and birds from Chinatown markets.

          • Gary Smith says:

            Padma…That's wonderful. Why not save an additional 95 animals by going vegan? It's so freeing to know that you are not contributing to the suffering of animals to please your palate. I ask you to seriously consider this. Thanks.

  2. pauloone says:

    I believe in the necessity to read multiple opinions, to be challenged, to be made to laugh, to be made angry. If I only read things that agreed with me 100% of the time, I would quickly become a bore and a dullard. A still pond, while lovely and easily reflecting our own image on its surface, tends to produce the most algae and bacteria. Cross currents keep ponds alive.

  3. Via http://www.facebook.com/elephantjournal

    Lisa C
    Very respectful and peaceful communication here. My hope would be that there are more people like each of you continually striving to make this world a brighter place, even when opinions and perspectives differ. Thanks to all. ♥

  4. Tobye says:

    Well don't we all get caught up in our egos!
    Expecting something to be a certain way because our ego wishes to control it that way.
    The whole meat versus ahimsa debate always finds its way in somewhere… but its all complete mindstuff! Ahimsa is about mindstuff… thoughts of violence lead to violence, so ahimsa fundamentally is about the thought itself, not the action.
    To get angry with elephant because it doesn't live up to your personal expectations is himsa. Not eating meat or using meat products doesn't tick off a box on some questionaire that the universe is filling out about you, but wanting to kill the black widow that could be hiding in your suitcase in the garage certainly does!
    The holier than thou attitude that a few vegans and vegetarians carry with them is delusional…. more of the subtle play of MAYA.
    People can still be spiritual and have a purpose in the evolution of mankind AND eat meat, and the idea that they can't is again himsa.
    It actually reminds me of "Animal farm" ….. " All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others!" In the minds of some vegans/vegetarians, meat eaters just aren't as equal.

    • Well, I agree that "Vegans are Mean", sometimes. I don't blame them. I'm vegetarian, and when I go to a sushi place or whatever with friends I find it hard to talk about being more mindful about where this "food" is coming from in an open, fun, humble way. I tend to get caught up in being right, and wanting to change others.

      That said, I do think we need to, at the least, boycott conventional meat and dairy. If it's not humanely raised (I know, a term vegans find painfully hypocritical) the torture and suffering these animals go through is, as I've said, a holocaust of our making. Just watch Gary's recent post: http://www.elephantjournal.com/2010/05/conklin-da

      I'm watching Food, Inc., right now, and am amazed that only a few corporations control all meat in the US. And that one of the biggest companies in chicken "production," Perdue, forbids its farmers from providing sunlight, ever, to the chickens. I'm working on a post on that.

      So, first step: when dining in or out, make sure you're not eating factory farm meat.

  5. buddyholly4 says:

    I am going to refuse to read EJ until they only post articles that agree 100% with my belief system. That's because the world is about right and wrong and there's no room for debate on anything. and of course I am right.

  6. Patrick says:

    I'm not a perfect person by any means, but I am interested in actual change and consistency and working towards that. "Being mindful" yet continuing to support various forms of human and non-human exploitation is completely absurd and frankly, appears totally superficial and egotistical/self-centered. I don't eat/wear animal products because I respect other life, not because it'll make me lose weight, look better, make me appear more this or that. Thinking nice thoughts is all very well, but actions matter as well. If you continue to directly support exploitation, whether animal, human or the environment yet "think good thoughts"…well, it seems just like a lot of useless feel good lip service.

  7. elaine says:

    I love this site and this blog in particular. If it becomes just another orthodox vegan blog, it would probably lose me. There's a real need to stay in conversation with people who are omnivore, vegetarian, vegan, curious, skeptical, etc. and to celebrate change that is "better" even if it is not "perfect".

    I've found, during my whopping year of blogging about being an "almost vegan" that few vegans are happy with anything short of exactly their worldview.

    But that should not stop the elephant from remaining as it is. Significant movement away from conventional choices, even if it falls short of veganism, DOES make a difference — for health, animals, people and the environment.

    Thanks for this post.

  8. Alex says:

    Just a short aside to Patrick – some folks eat meat b/c they physically do better eating meat. I was a vegetarian/almost vegan for years, but found that i feel better when i do eat some meat. And I almost exclusively eat local, humanely raised meat, and some seafood. Which i started doing years ago mostly because it just tastes better:) Living in northern NM it is thankfully possible to know where your food comes from – as it is if you're willing to do the work in alot of places around the country, alot more so than it used to be. In most cultures around the world, meat is a luxury, but we've probably been eating it for thousands of years, b/c sometimes our bodies need it. I'm not going to consider myself an animal exploiter b/c i buy lamb from a guy who has farmed and ranched the same land since before this area was the US. Everyone does their own bit – no need to blanketly condemn people for unknown exploitation. (If you own a factory farm, that may be another story). Cheers~

    • elephantjournal says:

      Good stuff. Know where it comes from. Be as responsible in whatever we do as we can.

      That said, there's a ton of health problems directly associated with eating meat.
      http://www.elephantjournal.com/2009/09/i-must-eat

      For many vegetarians, such as myself, we do great living active lives (I bike every day, am 190 pounds, full of energy) as long as we know what to eat. Many meat-eaters who try vegetarianism just take the meat out, don't eat enough protein.

  9. Via http://www.facebook.com/elephantjournal
    Brooks Hall
    It's awesome to share different viewpoints!! And it's great to hear another person's perspective. Difference rocks. We can share, respectfully listen, and hear a different thought on the matter. Yes!

  10. Truly Scrumptious says:

    “Different viewpoints,” others’ perspectives, and conversations are great when no one is getting hurt. But as it happens, animals are losing their lives – which they have every right to – while we all sit around talking about what ahimsa really means. If we apply the “celebrate differences!” mentality to cultural abuse of other humans, or to humankind’s raping the earth, does it hold up? I’d hazard that we’d all agree that no, it doesn’t. So why is it acceptable to apply it to the use of non-human animals?

    The thing is, you (elephant) don’t have to specifically say “hey we’re vegan guyz!” and you don’t have to promote veganism. All you have to do is make the choice to not include meat in posts (i.e., the camping recipes would simply have been vegan without bringing any attention to it), and to talk about animals in ways that takes the position of compassion and respect for their lives. Be on the side of compassion, period.

    By the way, as mentioned above, there is no humane meat, and being slaughtered causes suffering. For those more interested in “education than orthodoxy,” may I point out the irony that you are closing yourself to being educated about animals’ lives and self-interest by continuing to defend your eating habits?

    Alex, I would say that you were never “almost vegan,” and it appears to me from your self-serving post that you merely justified your desire to eat meat again. Had you a true interest in being healthy, you could easily have done so as a vegan. Had you a true belief that animals should be alive for their own sake, you would have managed to be a healthy vegan. (Of course, if you actually believed animals shouldn’t be hurt, you wouldn’t have stopped at “vegetarian/almost vegan” in the first place. So your post only highlights that your intention always was to be a bit selfish without appearing to be selfish.)

    Anyway, all I see in this thread is evidence of callously shallow thinking/discussing going on, and people actually *defending* that low level of thinking/discussing, and that fact that some people don’t see it only points to their own limitations and unwillingness to consider the topic further. And for this blog, that’s just disappointing.

  11. Faith says:

    Waylon, one day you promote that Nike commercial and less than two weeks later you tell people not to buy Chuck Taylors because they’re owned by Nike http://www.elephantjournal.com/2008/06/elereview-… That’s a perfect example of why Elephant Journal is ethically confused and inconsistent.

    If you believe that “killing animals for pleasure amounts to a daily holocaust,” then why would you post “Eight Classic Camping Recipes Every Cook Should Know?” “Bacon,” “steak,” and the fish were all animals with social lives and families who had an interest in continuing to live. Promoting their exploitation and deaths is contradictory to your stated belief.

    You say “open minded,” I say “lack of conviction.”

  12. Patrick says:

    The title of this Elephant Journal post is "Why Elephant Isn't Vegan (But Is All About Veganism)". This statement is the absurdity of which I'm addressing here…the complete contradiction in wanting to have things both ways, to "have an open mind" yet take no stance on anything. It's pointless and self-serving. I hear the world "mindful" and "ahimsa" thrown around a lot, yet I don't see a lot of taking responsibility many times from people using these words. Inner non-violence should directly influence the outer actions you take and directly supporting needless killing/abuse/exploitation for food, clothing and entertainment runs counter to non-violence. Being mindful while you eat steak and eggs while sitting around the campfire just seems to be a way of avoiding guilt. How about being "mindful" while participating/supporting other forms of violence? Like I mentioned in my original comment, this isn't just about non-human animals…I spoke about human exploitation as well regarding posts about Nike on Elephant Journal. Is criticizing human slavery self-righteous and holier than thou as well?

    I see a lot of people cheering "different viewpoints" and that's great, but my original comment was not about veganism in the sense of a "diet" necessarily, it was about ethical consistency, which seems to be easily misunderstood here and about with which Gary Smith eloquently addressed above. I am led to believe that this website is supposedly about being "green" and "sustainable living" etc., but animals products are just not. I see many people will go to extreme lengths to justify their use with words like "organic" and "local" and "humane". These word matter little when animals are still killed regardless on farms…both factory and small.

    If there is an actual interest in a diversity of voices on this site, then why be defensive when ONE person speaks their mind? Instead of rushing to defend oneself, why not actually consider what is being said? I find that many people are far more interested in their image and feeling good than actually making the effort to walk the walk. None of us are perfect, we can't do everything, but we should do everything we can.

  13. Padma Kadag says:

    Wow…You Vegans sure can get excited. Arguments for everything. This term of "living mindful" comes from where? The Buddha never said it. If the Buddha did say it to reflect his message it certainly was not an enlightenment which was attainable by diet. Or the lack of eating meat. If you are all about the wanton unnecessary suffering of animals in factory farms then I am with you. If you are all about not eating meat even if the animal is blissful at death then I am with you.

  14. Padma Kadag says:

    But let us not forget those "lesser" animals which number in the millions dying on a daily basis due to the farming of rice, wheat,barley, all grains and vegeies due to flooding,reaping, sowing, fertilizing and ploughing. The lives of insects are no less valuable than larger animals. If your arguments are economics of resources then I am not with you. I will not raise meat to eat it. I will not kill any animal intentionally. But this notion that meat eaters are somehow less mindful is not proven. How many great masters both male and female have attained enlightenment while living a life consuming meat. More than can be counted. Were they "Pro Meat"? No. Meat was given to them for nourishment . Did they encourage the slaughter of animals for their consumption? No. Did they eat meat which was not intentionally slaughtered for their consumption? No. Did they eat meat? yes. This is not to encourage meat eating but I think your emphasis is misguided to some degree.

  15. Medea says:

    A lot of comments here favouring veganism present a variety of 'undeniable truths' like 'consuming animal products is always exploitation/ahimsa/not green/not sustainable/not moral. Let me tell you something; things are never this black and white. Let's take pets as an example. All of my vegan friends own one or more (could be a coincidence, but I guess it is quite common). One could argue that this is a form of exploitation as well. These animals didn't choose to live with these people. They were chosen by the people to be a companion. Now, my friends don't think this is exploitation, because these animals are loved and well taken care for and treated with "respect".

    I own 3 chickens, who live in my garden (and sometimes in my home:) I consider them my pets. We cuddle. They like to snooze on my lap. I enjoy their company (and like to think they enjoy mine too). I love them, and make sure they are comfortable and well taken care of. O, and they lay eggs which I eat. I sincerely believe that I do not exploit these chicken any more than pet owners do their pets. But according to the comments above, I do. Maybe you think I'm the exception that confirms the rule. But even so, the fact that there are exception means that things are not as black and white as presented above. Please try to have an open mind for other arguments and realities.

  16. Athonwy says:

    Medea, you do not "own" 3 chickens, you control them. One cannot own another being. Vegans do not own pets, we caretake them, and provide for them, which is the responsible and compassionate thing to do in a world with a huge overpopulation of domestic animals due to humankind's carelessness and selfishness. Your very language reveals your speciesist mindset.

    Padma, eating animals consumes between 4 and 16 times the amount of grown plant food compared to eating the food directly. If you are truly concerned with causing less suffering you would be Vegan, as this would mean far less agriculture, and thus less suffering. Also, please show me where these alleged "blissful" animals are being killed.

    Animals are not ours to use, they exist for their own reasons, which we ought to respect. Animals are not resources, or chattel, they are sovereign and sentient beings. Widening your circle of compassion to encompass all life means not exploiting anyone if you have another option.

    • Padma Kadag says:

      Your points are good. But I will repeat. I do not kill animals as I assume you do not. I do not contract animals to be killed. I think you are correct in that animal factory farms should be abolished. Whether or not your figures are correct for the amount of plant material to feed an animal is correct does not matter to me…why should it matter to anyone? You still do not address the wanton murder of MILLIONS of animals while flooding a rice field. Then when the water insects and animals are established they are "murdered" when the rice field is drained. The application of organic certified copper murders nematodes in your murder free farming. The problem is Anthonwy is that you are not thinking about all of the people who raise families and need to work? Not that because of that they need to eat meat…but to embrace a Vegan lifestyle…frankly…is OCD. Now mind you…it may be a good one to be compul;sive about because you are saving lives. But I have never met a Vegan who was happy.

  17. Medea says:

    Athonwy, please don't fuzz over single words. English is not my native language. If you've read my post, you can see that I talk about taking care and providing lovingly for these animals, which is the same as, according to you, vegans do. The chickens that live at my place came from a shelter. I took them into my home not because of their eggs, but because they needed a home and chickens are not very popular pets in my country.

    I can't stop these animals from producing their eggs, and I think it's a waste to throw them away. That you don't agree with thit is fine, but your jumping to conclusions and judgmental comments in my humble opinion is not. I respect your viewpoints, but your way of communicating them is extremely off putting.

  18. pauloone says:

    Well if there is one thing these posts have taught me is that I will never be a Vegan. I may cease eating meat but I will not become a Vegan and for the same reasons I may be a Christian and choose not to be a Fundamentalist. My overall experience has been that Vegans aren't very nice and I would hate to get stuck in a stalled elevator with one.

  19. Suasoria says:

    Vegan-bashing: so mindful, so sattvic. Why it's ahimsa to act violently by eating meat but it's violence to suggest people stop. Check.

    "Angry," "delusional," "holier than thou." Check.

    Concern for insects – check.

    "I only eat…" insert euphemism (organic, humane, local, free-range, cage-free, etc.). Check.

    Yep, this pretty much ticks all the boxes of "defensive omnivore bingo."

  20. [...] reasoned that I would do my best to avoid it, but told my advisor that, if need be, I would eat eggs and dairy again. But after discussing it with my mom, who also recently adopted a [...]

  21. [...] reasoned that I would do my best to avoid it, but told my advisor that, if need be, I would eat eggs and dairy again. But after discussing it with my mom, who also recently adopted a [...]

  22. Medea says:

    Thank you for this much more educating response. I will certainly consider some of the things you've said. To answer your question about 'waste': there will be people who are indeed the "self absorbed kind", and think that everything that isn't consumed by humans is a waste. For me, it is because I have to live from a very tight budget. I'm a vegetarian, so most of my food consists of produce. Meat in this country can be obtained cheap (I know), but produce (especially organic & local) is very expensive. Because of that, it is often difficult to meet my families (caloric) needs. We have to make conscious choices regarding our food every day, everything is used one way or another. Is eating eggs a choice? Yes, it is. But my choice is not; do I use this egg, or do I replace it with something else? The choice is; do I use this egg or not / do we need this egg (calorie-wise) or not? 'Waste" for me is the ridiculous amount of food that ends up in the garbage everyday from people who buy more than they can eat.

    I'm telling you this to show that words have different meanings to different people. Try to be aware of that when you are pigeonholing other people. As I've said in my original post, nothing is just black and white; there are more realities than your own. And maybe, in one of these realities, a women on the other side of the atlantic who happens to eat eggs, isn't necessarily an evil racist.

    Thank you again for your response, and indirectly brining up this interesting subject.

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