My interview with John Friend regarding jfexposed accusations.

Via on Feb 8, 2012

Update: two more key interviews/letters: Douglas Brooks, longtime colleague of John Friend’s, & Amy Ippoliti, senior Anusara teacher who recently resigned.

Update: my interview with an Anusara Yoga teacher who resigned today: an inside view re the Anusara teacher resignations and a conversation re: how to avoid repeating history. ~ ed,

5 Questions for Anusara Yoga’s John Friend regarding “jfexposed” anonymous accusations.

You and I go back for a few years. I like and respect you, as many of us do. That said, there’s obviously a situation here that’s serious, in that it affects people and, since that jfexposed exposé web site and then Yogadork’s blog has had much of the yoga world talking.

I hope you regard the below as tough questions that give you an opportunity to respond as fully as you are able. I acknowledge that there are legal issues that may prevent full answers in some cases, but here are the questions.

So I’d like to ask you five succinct questions.

These questions are important beyond the specific circumstances of what that web site alleged, in that this entire situation, it is my hope, can best serve the international yoga community as an example of honesty, transparency, learning from difficult “teaching moments,” and how we as a community can rise above gossip and rumor, and communicate to one another ethically and with sourced facts. This is why, until now, the only thing elephant has reported on is why we’re not reporting on this situation–until we have non-anonymous/agenda-driven public sources. This is what the NY Times’ Public Editor does, for example.

Reporting gossip and anonymous accusations that hurt real human beings isn’t what we do. This is how we do it: we aspire to deal with difficult situations with patience, guts, transparency, fairness and compassion. We as a community don’t chase gossip. This isn’t fun for anyone, but it can be an opportunity to show the wider world how we deal with crisis and scandal by example.

One final pre-ramble: elephant is not afraid of controversy, and we do not hold ourselves above any other media out there. We simply are aspiring to do responsible journalism—a craft and tradition I respect and aspire to practice. But in situations like this it’s important.

You understand I have to ask tough questions, and in so doing will do you and everyone concerned, on all sides, some small favor by giving this situation some air and light. If I’m accused of being a sycophant here, no one will respect a word you offer.

SITUATION
1. The situation is this: many of your senior teachers—Darren Rhodes, Christina Sell, Elena Brower, Amy Ippoliti, Laura Christensen, have resigned from Anusara over the past few months. We talked about that, you and I, here. Then, on Friday morning, this jfexposed web site, an anonymous web site alleging all sorts of things that we’ll get into here, appeared online. It was quickly passed around the yoga community. When I received it, I was depressed by the material in it, particularly the explicit photos, and asked my friends to stop passing it around. Clearly this was something serious that should be treated as more than gossip or entertainment.

The web site, which was hosted internationally so it was legally difficult to get taken down, alleged various things:
a) that you’d had various relationships, affairs with married women who in some cases have children.
b) That you had run some sort of corrupt pension scheme, which we detail in some legal context here.
c) that you smoked pot and had it shipped around
d) It showed graphic photos (with no face, so seemingly not adding anything to Mr. or Ms. Anonymous’ accusations, and skype screenshots of your conversations).

When I saw this I couldn’t help but think of these women’s families.

FIRST QUESTION
So the first question is, why should anyone care about this interview, when the last time I interviewed you about those teachers leaving, you were not fully honest about why they were leaving?

~

John Friend: First of all, thank you, Waylon, for giving me an opportunity to present my truth in the face of these accusations. 

This has been such a painful time for me as I self-reflect on how my personal decisions within my private life have become a source of deep anguish for my friends and community.

I am so deeply sorry for any harm that my actions have caused anyone.

I appreciate the opportunity to clear the record today since not all of the accusations were true, and yet they were posted on the internet six days ago without any verification. These are complicated issues about private matters involving many innocent people, and I will be as open and transparent as I can be. So, again, thank you Waylon for being the first person in the media to ask me about the truth in this matter. Thank you for being patient and waiting for the facts, the truth.

So, to answer your first question, every teacher has their own unique reason for moving on. When you asked me why the teachers left Anusara Yoga in the last few months, I shared with you the official reasons each teacher shared with me. Unequivocally, I can say that none of these teachers told me they were leaving because of these accusations or a problem with my ethical behavior. Every teacher has their own path, and I honor that wholly. I am grateful for the teachers who are standing behind the teachings of Anusara Yoga during this tender moment in time.

~

SECOND QUESTION
WTF? I’m not personally concerned with your relationships, or the relationships of the women who were outed on this web site. That’s not my business, or the business of my readers. I’m not very concerned with the wicca/witch/coven/tantra stuff, I personally find religion generally to be full of wonderful and rich myth and tradition. The Bible, for example, has all kinds of fantastic stories and rites or rituals in it.

But what is our business is ethics, and as a spiritual teacher and leader you are of course held to a higher standard. That said, we’re all adults here and the relationships were consensual, I understand. No one should be put on a pedestal as “perfect” only to be torn down. I don’t worship you, or anyone, and we all need to take responsibility for our own actions. That said, there is a power differential in any kind of intimate relationship between a student and a certified teacher. And while you’re not a medical professional, you have described yourself as a guru.

We all make mistakes. That said, how do you explain your actions, when obviously they have resulted in confusion, pain, and broken families?

~

John Friend: Waylon, first off, I do not use the term “Guru” to describe myself, and work hard to stay away from being so designated. Above all, I am a student of life and yoga, and then a teacher, and the founder of Anusara Yoga.

Secondly, it’s true. Over the course of my private life I have had consenting sexual relationships with women, some of whom have been my students and also my employees, some of which included married women.

It’s not fair for me to explain the intimate details of each relationship in a public forum, nor do I want to further violate the privacy of others as has been the case by this malicious attack. The most important thing to say here is I made some mistakes, yet my intent was never to do harm.

But as the details are spread across the internet, I see clearly where I can rise up as a man, and walk differently in my relationships with women.

~

THIRD QUESTION
Why is whomever is behind jfexposed accused you of all of this? Various web sites have been approached by him/her for some time now, s/he’s been trying to get her/his version of the story out there. Why is s/he seeking some sort of revenge? Are you suing her/him? What’s the overall situation?

~
John Friend: I do not know the motivations behind the viciousness of the attacks. It is clear to me that he has chosen to attack in a malicious, indiscriminate, and likely illegal way, which has been so hurtful and damaging to so many innocent people.

It should be noted that neither Anusara nor I have ever been in a lawsuit.

Lastly, I am practicing compassion for this guy, although very difficult, and yet I have no hate. I only pray for peace and healing for all.

~

FOURTH QUESTION
Pension? Below our readers will see a legal document exonerating Anusara of accusations of impropriety. But what’s the story with that, from your pov?

~

John Friend: As you can see from the following documents and public statements, here is the entire story regarding the pension.

> Pension Documents here.

~

FIFTH AND FINAL QUESTION
Going forward, on a personal level, how are you going to wake up and grow as a human being? Has this situation helped?

On a professional level—if it’s possible to separate the two as perhaps the world’s most famous and successful yoga teacher—do you have a career left? Will you be teaching? What’s going to happen with your community? Are more senior teachers going to leave? Will you be leading teacher trainings over the next 12 months?

On a greater community level, how can we all use this as a learning experience for how to rise above gossip and yet still be painfully, bravely transparent both as individuals, as a community, and in elephant’s case, as media?

~

John Friend: This is quite the one question!

…Study and practice is my life, and teaching is my dharma, which brings me the greatest joy.

I am awake to choices I have made that have opened the door for others to question who I am, and I know this is ultimately a gift. I am committed to being transparent and open, which I have not always been. To this end, I am fully evolving as a man, teacher and friend in the community and on this planet.

For the community, my deepest hope is this brings us closer together, in a more intimate and honest conversation around life. Some students and teachers will inevitably decide to move on, others will become more involved and take an expanded leadership role within the Anusara organization.

So, I envision the future of Anusara as including greater cooperation from all of our community.

We must all remember that any mis-steps by me do not invalidate any of the greatness of the Anusara yoga method.

I bravely step into the person I am today, and I am becoming in every moment. At once this is both deeply humbling and also a gift.

~

My best wishes and compassion to all involved. Thanks, John, for sitting down for these difficult questions.

I understand this situation is fully within a legal context and expect that you will be somewhat limited in your ability to answer. [editor’s note: John and his friends did not ask me to get rid of any questions or say they couldn’t answer anything above]. That’s not my concern. My job is to ask the questions thoroughly and fairly. I hope I’ve done that, and offer this interview in service to enlightened society.

I don’t personally find that exposed site fair, kind or helpful to you, the other persons concerned, or even the accuser. I think any of us could be exposed in such a way, with 80% being true and 20% agenda-driven anonymous stuff poisoning the lot. However, I do hope that site and yogadork’s report, and now this interview, plus your statement and document re: pension exoneration can ultimately be helpful.

We all need to learn to be more transparent and, as students, less caught up in rockstar syndrome. We can all embrace empowered non-theism as we Buddhists call it, and be kinder to one another as a community.

Deep breath! And deep bow to all concerned.

Yours in service as the ultimate smile,

Waylon

About Walk The Talk Show

Walk the Talk Show with Waylon Lewis is fun, yet fundamentally serious. We aim to be "The Daily Show of mindfulness," spreading the good news beyond the choir to those who weren't sure they gave a care. Our videos are featured on more than 20 sites, including elephantjournal.com. Fan us on facebook too.

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464 Responses to “My interview with John Friend regarding jfexposed accusations.”

  1. Steven N. says:

    Elephant Journal is a magazine that is bound and defined by the principles of journalism in the same manner as Newsweek, or Time magazine.
    Namely: objectivity (or at the least, a dispassionate approach toward identified attachments) .
    Elephant Journal is not a psychiatric-psychological review of case studies.
    The principle of objectivity as applied in a magazine interview and the quest to uncover the nature of psychological-psychiatric disorders (as would be explored in a case studies review) are non-compatible.
    Asking an individual (like John Friend) who suffers with unresolved narcissistic wounds to understand these wounds and their effect upon others, and to explicate the details of this understanding in a magazine may be bordering on the grandiose.
    Like others who have expressed similar sentiments, I, too, feel disappointed by the interview, and the lack of clarity of purpose for the interview.
    After working as a social worker and mental health counselor for many years I made the decision to leave the "industry" after a last "dance" at a treatment center where the concept of "parallel process" served as an excuse for the health care providers to behave similarly to those seeking help.
    My question for Elephant Journal reflects the concept of parallel process: who is Elephant Journal attempting to serve in this interview?
    The cynic in me observes Elephant Journal's Waylon Lewis struggling to serve himself; to save face from the non-objective relationship Mr. Waylon developed with Mr. Friend. A relationship that speaks to a bond around parallel process, around an age old problem of loss, the ubiquitous experience of pain around loss and the conditions through which the experience of loss can so easily manifest (e.g., mistaking prakriti for purusa).
    That so many continue to be so enamored by charismatic personalities (after so many have been unveiled) remains disquieting.

    • maurice says:

      Steven you do pose a valid question. Waylon has a history of interviewing John on more mundane topics-relatively speaking. This was not a time to be sensitive to John's feelings but to be responsible to serving the needs of the yoga community.

      • elephantjournal says:

        For the 80th time, this interview got John to admit far more than he has previously (or since) in a public forum–despite the fact that I wasn't given the opportunity to conduct a true, live, give-and-take interview. Way to take pot shots.

    • elephantjournal says:

      I do like him. I don't hide it. Many who have left him and are angry with him liked him. He's a likeable guy. But my definition of friendship, perhaps unlike yours, does not preclude honesty. I have no need or desire to save face, beyond calling him out (as I did, first question) on his lack of transparency in our last interview.

  2. Dan G says:

    For the people who have spent thousands and thousands of dollars, countless hours of devotion, made their life’s-circles surounded by kula-people…. this is destroying their world.

    John Friend is personally responsible for flagrantly flushing the whole system down the toilet. He is the sole proprietorship of a corporation that has no accountability. No share holders, no one to keep his power in check (congress senate president).

    It is not surprising that he used his Merry Minstrel Mogul Mischief for his own personal Pan Bachanal. Pagans are a lusty raucus bunch. Not surprising that he weaved a spell of mystery (shri!) around him and garnered power, money and fame.

    I think everyone is shocked that the truth was so thoroughly revealed to render him powerless to the internet, which he used to create his empire. Live by the sword, die by the sword. You can’t have it both ways. When you write your own ethics, and hold other people accountable to them, you had better be behaving by them or you will be accountable to a much greater source (in this case, the world at large).

    Anyone that represents Anusara is representing corrupt politics. Becaused of the two faced propaganda of the founder, Anusara is no longer a philosophy, instead it is a marketing tool designed to hook you in and make you feel part of a club. How can any student trust their teacher who labels themselves with a Scarlett A?

    I feel bad for all of the teachers who are staying because they are loyal to the system. If the teachings are so powerful, they will survive a great fall and be communicated in a way that is understood by the teachers and students; not creating a catchy-all method that is designed to create followers who brand themselves as special because “it works”.

    They are not being loyal to anyone but John Friend. Was he loyal to you when he made you sign your license that limits your yoga and your teachings? Who did that serve? It created a house of cards that he personally has toppled with seemingly little or no remorse or accountability (as evidenced by him teaching his Tantra of relationships in Miami after his committee advised him not to, he still has to take the stage and see who his true followers really are).

    There is no doubt that there are awesome teachers in the aforementioned and soon to be a dirty word method. My wish is for each one of them to look inside themselves and be Dorothy at the end of the Wizard of Oz who has been listening to the tricks and illusions from the Man Behind the Curtain who turns out to not have any of the answers.

    The great teachers are still great teachers as evidenced by their integrity and willingness to walk away from a train wreck created by Chief Engineer John Friend. He did this to himself. This is not blame, this is fact.

    Dorothy looks inside of herself and found out it was she who had the power. Please teachers, students, and followers of JF, tear down the wall, look behind the curtain, check your 3rd eye and realize that you already have it all, and you don’t need him or anyone else to label you fit enough to teach what you already know based upon your own exploration and passion for the beauty and wonderment of Yoga.

  3. […] the report yesterday of John Friend, founder of Anusara Yoga, stepping down due to accusations of alleged sexual misconduct with students and financial [questions], I am reminded of our politicians under which the lamp of scrutiny their lives are […]

  4. […] Mi piacerebbe approfondire l’argomento ma… mi manca davvero il tempo. Se volete dare un’occhiata, qui c’è un’intervista (a mio parere un po’ morbida) di Waylon Lewis con Friend ( http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/02/m&#8230😉 […]

  5. daila says:

    People need to seperate the teaching from the teacher. dont worship the teacher. They are human like everyone and have fallacies. Nothing wrong with John Friend. Sexual issues are rampant in the west. This is something that John has to deal with. Anusara yoga is still a great yoga.

  6. michael says:

    BREATHE! I’m delighted to announce that I too am flawed like John Friend & thank God for that!
    My students like me because I’m honest, flaws & all! I say have as much sex as you can with as many students as you can while your still young & flexible!…I’m kidding but seriously people no ethics have been broken only our perception of what they should be! Now…back on the mat!

  7. mikeyoga says:

    I think John rocks! He is honest about his humanity & I don't think he has done anything wrong at all. We are ALL human & INTENTION is everything. I say have as much sex as you want…We are all human. Consentual if perfectly fine as no power is taken.
    INTENTION is everything, even if we don't like the form through action it takes. Come move DownUnder John! We love real people down here xMike

  8. Johnny says:

    So what. people sleep around all the time…all over the world, all throughout time. big deal. IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO!
    Theres no victims here either. Its not like he went a flat out raped someone.
    folks pull the sex/ blame card all the time. And it looks like the pension thing has a legitimate explanation as well.
    And…smoking some herb…whatever. Almost everbody has tried it…and its illegal because of big corporate interests.

    kinda sad what has happened.

  9. Erinn says:

    i saw this coming a long time ago. His ego is massive and I can't believe so many people followed like sheeple. If you want a real guru look to Sivananda. HE actually practiced real yoga (not to mention ahimsa AND brahmacharya) not just overblown asana.

  10. Tori says:

    Actually I like JF more now than before nothing like a bit of fallibility to endear me to a person.

  11. Jer Bear says:

    "Sorry you feel that way
    The only thing these is to say
    Every silver lining's got a
    Touch of grey" (R.Hunter)

  12. Steven N. says:

    In Response to the John Friend interview:
    Elephant Journal is a magazine that is bound and defined by the principles of journalism in the same manner as Newsweek, or Time magazine.
    Namely: objectivity (or at the least, a dispassionate approach toward identified attachments).
    Elephant Journal is not a psychiatric-psychological review of case studies.
    The principle of objectivity as applied in a magazine interview and the quest to uncover the nature of psychological-psychiatric disorders (as would be explored in a case studies review) are non-compatible.
    Asking an individual (like John Friend) who suffers with unresolved narcissistic wounds to understand these wounds and their effect upon others, and to explicate the details of this understanding in a magazine may be bordering on the grandiose.
    Like others who have expressed similar sentiments, I, too, feel disappointed by the interview, and the lack of clarity of purpose for the interview.
    After working as a social worker and mental health counselor for many years I made the decision to leave the "industry" after a last "dance" at a treatment center where the concept of "parallel process" served as an excuse for the health care providers to behave similarly to those seeking help.
    My question for Elephant Journal reflects the concept of parallel process: whom is Elephant Journal attempting to serve in this interview?
    The cynic in me observes Elephant Journal's Waylon Lewis struggling to serve himself; to save face from the non-objective relationship Mr. Waylon developed with Mr. Friend. A relationship that speaks to a bond around parallel process, around an age old problem of loss, the ubiquitous experience of pain around loss and the conditions through which the experience of loss can so easily manifest (e.g., mistaking prakriti for purusa).
    That so many continue to be so enamored by charismatic personalities (after so many have been unveiled) remains disquieting.

  13. Nicole Dunas says:

    I admire you, Waylon, for your integrity here. Many blessings!

  14. […] Elephant Journal has an “interview” (i.e., submitted questions and received written responses) with John Friend regarding the JFExposed allegations. There are no real denials. He admits having sex with Anusara women, married women. More on that later. […]

  15. […] Even better, this article quotes neither Dork nor Elephant nor my Walk the Talk Show interviews with John Friend or three of his colleagues, but a single recent article by Elena Brower in the Huff Post, and reads […]

  16. […] In an interview about the accusations he gave to journalist Waylon Lewis of Elephant Journal magazine Friend admits to having “made mistakes in my personal life” while insisting he intended no one any harm. (Source) […]

  17. earth bunny says:

    A heartfelt piece on what we can take away personally from John Friends Failures…
    http://www.elephantjournal.com/?p=292521

    heart… earth bunny brian sun

  18. Steve Gunther says:

    People in glass houses….
    We are all flawed…
    So who throws the first stone?
    Lets each look into our souls and be interested in our own denial and shame.
    And yes, public figures are publicly responsible for their actions. So hence the public accountability. Good attempt at an interview. He was just plain evasive. And I understand also – he is totally shamed. For him to be really honest would be difficult in a situation where everyone just now wants to dump shit on him.
    Yes, he clearly screwed up, and clearly hurt people, and clearly has affected many people negatively.
    So, lets get to the really interesting discussion of the inner dynamics of how this can and does happen. How we are all involved in creating blind places in organisations, and in ourselves. Lets acknowledge that these were actions that created major damage, and take the focus off roasting him, and onto an interesting learning discussion for all of us who aspire to spiritual values…

  19. […] American yoga is abuzz with the inevitable sex scandal. John Friend, founder of Anusara Yoga, has admitted to numerous affairs with female students, some of whom were married. Because Friend is probably the […]

  20. martin says:

    We are all products of our environments, so creating the community creates the behaviour you have witnessed here. The idea that someone can be enlightened is part of the problem. There is no ego or guru, there is only egoic thinking and behaviour. The greatest trick the ego has ever pulled is convincing us that it is real. Sheldon Kopp wrote a book called~ ' If You See Buddah on the Road..Kill Him'. What he meant by this is, that there are no Gurus, just people who are further down the road in knowledge than perhaps you are. To think that the leader of a group, with so much influence is not going to be enticed by egoic thinking, is delusional. There is an arguement for implementing 'STOPS' in all groups or communities. STOPs = Strategies for Overcoming Power.

    When you create something, you get past c1 thinking to C2 thinking in the Universal product cycle of Everything. At the C2 level, you want to consildate what you have, it is then that egoic thinking comes into effect again as it is only scared of losing sex, salary, status and security; it is never satisfied for long and needs a bigger hit the more time goes on. I imagine that's what happened here.. Raising awareness of this behaviour and shunning the idea of Gurus being non human or something else, should be encouraged… Maybe?. His behaviour was perfectly natural, flawed as all humans are or not as passing judgement seems counterintuitve to the whole enlightened position I would have thought that to not have expected it seems kind of naive and pointing fingers is merely projection. Why are we to assume that certain people are better than others? Enlightined thinking is fleeting at the best of times… If we are all a product of our environment, then perhaps the systems in place and the philosophy as whole needs overhauling, to protect Gurus from themselves…possibly?

    (http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/02/the-universal-product-cycle-of-everything/)

  21. martin says:

    We are all products of our environments, so creating the community creates the behaviour you have witnessed here. The idea that someone can be enlightened is part of the problem. There is no ego or guru, there is only egoic thinking and behaviour. The greatest trick the ego has ever pulled is convincing us that it is real. Sheldon Kopp wrote a book called~ ' If You See Buddah on the Road..Kill Him'. What he meant by this is, that there are no Gurus, just people who are further down the road in knowledge than perhaps you are. To think that the leader of a group, with so much influence is not going to be enticed by egoic thinking, is delusional. There is an arguement for implementing 'STOPS' in all groups or communities. STOPs = Strategies for Overcoming Power.

  22. […] by the pain of being turned inside out. Let me be clear, birth was more painful than our present situation, but there are some […]

  23. […] our livelihoods. Also, Betsey was in the unique position of being the only person that saw the jfexposed website [since taken down ~ ed.] of February 3 and participated in the mediated phone meeting of […]

  24. […] published the first and only interview with John Friend, where questions regarding his affairs (which he admitted to publicly for the first time) and the […]

  25. Jake says:

    The tone of many comments here seems to be that JF shouldn't be given a forum to present his side of the story. I want to hear what he has to say. Personally, I'm not interested in my teachers' personal lives, just whether or not they are good yoga teachers. One of my yoga teachers dated his student, then he married her, and now they have a beautiful child. It's normal for people who spend time together to develop feelings for one another.

  26. michael says:

    Recently I learned something that completely liberated me from all this sort of drama.
    As a Male Yoga Teacher this all really used to exhaust me. ALL humans are a paradox. There is a side to me that is deeply spiritual, caring & centred, the other side of me is impatient, reckless & insecure. I oscillate between both every moment of the day. Any person, Yoga teacher or otherwise, who wants to engage in human pleasures that are consented to are perfectly free to do so. Consent is not exploitative. Engaging in anything that doesn't harm does not negate your spiritual side nor your intentions to grow & learn in any way…period!
    People who judge anothers behaviour really have to embrace & accept their own.

  27. Jake says:

    Obviously a lot of interest here in what this man has to say. Please interview John again after he has had some time to reflect on his actions.

  28. […] the first real interview (my “interview,” until now the only one, in which John first admitted to affairs and dire…) with John Friend—one of the world’s leading yoga teachers and movers & shakers who was […]

  29. mick says:

    It sounds like he did a Bernie Madoff of hijacking the poodie. Just saying….

  30. […] In an interview he gave to journalist Waylon Lewis of Elephant Journal magazine Friend admits to having “made mistakes in my personal life” while insisting he intended no one any harm. (Source) […]

  31. […] By now, you have probably heard about the controversy surrounding the founder and leader of the Anusara yoga community. I won’t inventory the allegations, but you can read them here. […]

  32. […] face all over yoga forums and blogs (if you haven’t heard about the recent gossip, see here). The leader and creator of Anusara…his face thrown up for everyone to see, like a shirt hung […]

  33. […] My interview with John Friend regarding jfexposed accusations … Feb 8, 2012 … 5 Questions for Anusara Yoga's John Friend regarding jfexposed … since that jfexposed exposé web site and then Yo… […]

  34. […] that he did have sexual relations with one of his students who was married with children from his Elephant Journal interview, as well as the pension documents supporting the accusation of ilegally freezing employee’s […]

  35. […] Anusara? John Friend is now a Hatha yoga teacher. Click here for some context, update, on the whole silly sad messy trials and tribulations. […]

  36. […] at the appropriate time. That time will come when all the information is on the table, when we know the true extent of his behavior and when he has taken responsibility for his actions by submitting to an ethics evaluation and […]

  37. […] American yoga is abuzz with the inevitable sex scandal. John Friend, founder of Anusara Yoga, has admitted to numerous affairs with female students, some of whom were married. Because Friend is probably the […]

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